This page contains entries made between January 1, and March 31, 2003.
These names and addresses are posted to enable people to contact friends and loved ones. Please do not exploit this information for commercial purposes.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: January 1, 2003
Well, knock me down with a feather, in my lunch break in central Sydney I have just seen three Hales EB's (father and three girls) sitting at a table in a dining arcade and tucking happily into FOOD MADE WITH UNCLEAN HANDS. In my days in the sect (JTJr period) doing this would have had me shot at dawn the next morning. The only exemption was on aeroplanes, presumably because JTJr couldn't face up to a few hours fast in mid-air.
I was so fascinated by this apparition that I sneaked a look at their dress as well, hoping to see some shorts on the man (shock, horror) but the worst I could see was jeans. The eldest girl was wearing a maroon top and blue denim skirt and was the only one of the three girls wearing a blue headscarf over her long hair, while the younger two were wearing bows (only) on their heads, one blue and the other red. The eldest girl looked suspiciously made-up (definitely well-powdered and perhaps a little eye shadow) but at least had no lipstick or earings.
Mr Bruce Hales, what do you think you're up to, letting your local brethren disobey one of the elect vessel JTJr's most basic edicts ? Alternatively, you're simply losing control over them.
Oliver
Guest: Peter
Guest E-mail: peter10@btclick.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 2, 2003
Margaret Wilson makes a point worth noting, that in undoing the harshness they "are undoing JTJnr's ministry. It was he who taught the harshness"
We can go further and add that all assembly judgements in the last thirty years were only pronounced once they had been sanctioned by phone, by JHS (or an appointed deputy), and then in later years by JSH or an approved deputy.
Surely the present activities are therefore a condemnation of those who approved these judgements, the 'elect vessels ' themselves?
What happened to the penalty for speaking against the elect vessel?!!
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@ shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 2, 2003
That commentary on food being prepared with "holy hands" takes me back a few years! To get to Vancouver involved a couple of hours on a ferry, and being a ravenous teenager, I would go down to the cafeteria and get a hamburger- which inevitably drew the long faces of the "wannabe" leaders of the day, and the question of "was it prepared with holy hands?"
At any rate "the cloud moved" [remember that one?] and eating on the ferry became ok, no doubt officially sactioned by a call to "New York" [how one phones "New York" I really don't know] Now that the "cloud had moved" [a very conveniant catch-all explanation for the whimsy of JTjr] the brethren were free to eat on the ferry, and when one of them asked me if I was going to join them for a hamburger, I very innocently inquired if it was made with "holy hands?" This was not well recieved, and I was informed by way of explanation "the Spirit wasn't currently stressing that right now" and I was on" very dangerous grounds" [which almost made up for turning down the hamburger]
In spite of the humour [at least I found it so, especially their discomforture at being questioned] it does point up how dificult these folks have it- they really don't know what is coming down next, what is right today is wrong tomorrow, what is wrong today may be right the next day, and it all depends on the whim of whoever happens to be the elect vessel. The scriptures call it"being tossed about by any wind of doctrine"
Guest: Tim Sims
Guest E-mail: timsims@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Edinburgh Scotland
Date & Comments: January 2, 2003
I was asked to leave the Brethren in 1965. Until Sep 2002 I had very little contact with my family (2 brothers & 3 sisters, mother and father). In Sep 2002 my father along with the local leader made contact with [me] to apologise for the way in which I had been treated. Over the last few months I have been able to speak with all my brothers and sisters on the phone. I was also able to visit my parents' house and meet up with all my family again. I am not currently in the brethren so this is quite a change in thinking on their part as to pepole who have left. I am now getting regular phone calls and being asked to visit my parents' house and bring my girlfriend who also is not in the brethren. Although while I am there they will not eat or drink with me they are quite happy to sit with me and provide me with refreshments.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 2, 2003
To All
I posted a message on here a couple of weeks ago about me joining the Exclusive Brethren's. I have never been a member of this Religion, but I am still willing to join.
I work with a couple of guy's who are members of this Church. They are happy that I am joining the Exclusive Brethren. There rules don't bother me at all. I have had rather alot of time in changing myself to this for which I am confident I am making the right move.
Also to Oliver Bedford. I am genuine. I am aware what I am doing, which is my choice. Because the Exclusive Brethren Religion didn't work out for some people, it may not mean it will not work out for me.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
RE: “Profane vain babblings shun” – II Timothy 2 v 16 (The Brethren’s famous charter chapter)
In the 1960’s I grew disenchanted with the teaching being promulgated. I sat in meetings and made my own notes and jottings in the back of my JND bible. Here are some of the comments attributed to the infamous leader of the day, JT Jr. himself:
“Heaven will be one big laugh” – quote by John Devenish (Philip Woodcock’s father in law) at Beckenham on Oct 27 1968.
“The resurrection of Christ was the biggest laugh ever” – quote by Keith Groombridge in 1968 (Keith was then aged 20 and my best friend until 1966). I spoke to Keith about three years ago for 20 minutes. He constantly asked me if JT Jr. was a pure man. Poor Keith.
“Christ was received into heaven in a most hilarious way” and “The angel sat on the tombstone and laughed, he laughed!” both quotes by Norman Millard of Bromley (since out) on March 23 1969
“The man of God is our introduction to Christ. You see how he acts, and that is your introduction” - quote by Bob Fleck of Bromley (Robert Stott’s son in law)
If only the brethren would read the rest of II Timothy 2 instead of pumping verse 19 only!
Guy Wilson
Guest: Rod Wilkins
Guest E-mail: wilkins@austarnet.com.au
City, Country: Mackay, Queensland, Australia
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Congratulations to Guy Wilson for having the guts to play the EBs at their own game and make these visits - I'm very much enjoying reading the reports.
It reminds me of a report I read about a young lady in the UK who visited a Jehovah's Witness place of worship, handing out free magazines and pamphlets and refusing to leave. The younger folk saw the funny side but the elders were not amused!
I wonder Guy, do you do requests? I could send you a list of people who I think need a visit. You could charge a fee based on your success - a basic fee for arranging an audience, a decent fee for persuading someone to leave, and a humungous fee for just thoroughly annoying one of them!
Alas, I'm not living in EB territory at the moment but next week I'm moving to Brisbane and I'm considering setting up camp at the EB meeting room carpark entrance. Does anyone have any suggestions as to appropriate material I could hand to them as they enter and leave?
Guest: Doug Holt
Guest E-mail: doogle_66@hotmail.com
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Gday to all of you ex pb's.Seems like a lot of contact has been made recently from our families and...choke.......brothers!!!!
I have had three phone calls and two letters but I do resent it somewhat after all this time especially after all the rubbish we endured.
I have lived in a location a long way from any peebs until recently and in doing so had almost forgotten about them.I don't really have any hate left in me towards them so I will be taking positives only from any future "get togethers".
Have been out now for 21 yrs and will definitely NOT be returning.
Life's too short to be hung up on their twisted idea of happiness.
Cheers!!!
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Dear Mr Dick Wyman,
Please erase all my entries I have sent since last springtime. I will contact you further on when things have calmed down a little bit, you know what I mean, for example some trying to track down ex-ebs etc, so for the moment I don't want that my name or mails appear anywhere.
Thank you for your great work. Don´t ever give up!!
Hope you and your family have had a nice X=mas and a Happy New Year.
My best regards to you all and wish all the best
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Interesting recall by Guy- and backed up by names, dates,etc. The one thing I remeber well was after "the cloud moved" or " the spirit wasn't stressing that right now" any query about what was said [although strenuesly enforced at the time] was inevitably met with "did you hear JTjr.say that?" or it was taken "out of context" or, he was "misquoted"
Poor souls, they were tripping over themselves to be "in line with the current ministry" and when the party line changed, which it did frequently, they were all left scrambling to keep up, and trying to do the damage control thing on what they were doing last week.
I find it curious that in this latest ploy-the one subject that is off limits is JTjr.s behaviour- they still can't come to terms with that. They are willing [or they have been told] to apologise for almost anything- except they still maintain Aberdeen was a" mystery" [yeah, right!] One thing that this website is doing though- is aquainting them with some of the inside stories of JTjr, those closest to him-people who once were his strongest supporters [and Billie Peterson certainly qualified for that title] when they were faced with incontrovable evidence, did the right thing and faced him with it. Unfortionately, he couldn't deal with the fact that he was a human being,and even if he could, the power group wouldn't let him anyway, they knew all too well if he did, their whole system would come crashing down, and the brethren were subjected to yet another bitter division.This, in my opinion, is one of the major flaws with brethren, they put their leaders on a pedestal, and cannot accept that they too, are human, with all the frailties and weaknesses we all have. You've got to hand it to them though- they have a fantastic memory-it works when they want it to!
Guest: Max
City, Country: Perth Australia
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
All the activity regarding the visits is very interesting. The fact that under Brucie Hales they will virtually accept anybody back, with virtually no conditions, smacks of desperation or a sense that things are spinning out of control. On the other hand, maybe the elect vessel has realised that everything past 1959 (separation etc etc) is ANTI CHRISTIAN and it is about time that it was stopped. If there has been this realization then well done Brucie!!
Guest: Anon
City, Country: NA
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Here is another quote from JTJnr. (circa 1966?)
"Hang on to my coat-tails, I'll get you to Heaven".
Guest: Josephine Lacey (nee Twinam)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Eastbourne,East Sussex,UK
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Guest: Toad
Guest E-mail: toadhall@fastmail.fm
City, Country: Sydney
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Oliver Bedford needs to remember that in the EBs, all us animals are equal, but that some are more equal than others.
Guest: Anon
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Can you not see what the hanky heads are doing?? Coming to visit you to say Sorry!! They don't even know what they are saying sorry about.. Then everything is supposed to be sweet.. Ask yourself. What is their motive? They come with a family member. This is absolutely disgusting ,
dangling a family member in your face.
Once they have you , they will close the doors once again. Once they have their numbers up again.
They are nothing but evil, hypercritical, family destroying, using [illegitimate children]. There is nothing nice about them. Don't be fooled by their pathetic little stunts.
I have remained anon because I further don't want to get three girls in the [barnyard waste]. Three girls and I know who they are and can name them. They were about 6 to 8 weeks ago in a pub on a Saturday night. One, a smart little stuck up little maddam, in jeans and a short top was all over the guys. One has a tv and one has a cd player.
The smart one was seen by my friend giving people the fingers and saying " f" you out loud down the main street.
They seem to have the intelligence of a monkey. Not very bright. I find this behaviour disgusting. I certainly don't want anything to do with these people. I haven't had my visit yet and when I do, my husband can't wait to tell them what he thinks.
cheers
Guest: Wesley Franzen
Guest E-mail: macfootball76@yahoo.com
City, Country: San Antonio, USA
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
I just wanted to notify anyone who wants to know that my e-mail address has changed to macfootball76@yahoo.com.
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: PJFrench@Celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - ex Warrnambool 1982
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
I read and I smile...and I wonder -
1. How many are 'really' deep down hoping that they get a visit, an apology, and the chance to restart back again?
2. How many would go back if the deception, corruption and evil of Aberdeen was admitted to and JTJnr 'deleted'?
3. How many would go back if everything was reversed back to where we were in the 1950's?
4. How many are not really game at this point to be 'really' honest about what would get them back into the peebs?
5. How much 'hankering' is there to sometime get back [a] into the peebs, or [b] get square with them?
Frankly, I have read with an open mind since they favoured me a size 10 in the rear end, and I have NO doubt that they have ALWAYS been a cult. I really don't care whether it is Darby, Raven, Taylor[s], Symington, or Hale[s] - they are unchristian and evil in intent and affect, always have been, and no Peeb-pope better of worse than the other.
So HOW can anyone really go back if they have ANY degree of judgement of the system that started with Darby? It was Popery from then ... and i feel a lot safer being a Roman Catholic than a peeb, and have proven what was often quoted that '...there are more truer believers in the Catholics ... '
- but then maybe the cloud has moved on ... I had forgotten that one :-)
- lets us never forget how we were sucked in and believed all of that sort of rubbish. Yes - Animal Farm to the "T" ... and we found out who the pigs were - let us NEVER forget that!
Contractor readers for the peebs - please report this back ... and tell them that if there is the slightest chance that some poor fool is thinking of 'visiting' me, save his time, and protect what little dignity that he may think that he has ...
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia (ex-UK)
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
Firstly, to "W Bradley" of Perth (Bill ? Wilberforce ?). W, if you've made up your mind, go for it. You'll soon learn. By the way, in my previous note I forgot to say you should burn your bathing togs (remember to get out of them first, as you do seem to be a few chapters short of a full bible) and shoot your pets if any (remember to hold the thin end of the gun away from you). I can't help noticing that you say you're joining "the Exclusive Brethren Religion", which is a pity, because the Christian Religion is so much better, with a particularly good "elect vessel", Jesus Christ. Frankly, I think you really are a hoax despite your protestations.
On more factual matters, it's interesting that Brucie is quoting his number of adherents in Sydney as almost 700 (Detroit, September). Given my memories of the large size of the "city" meeting in 1968/69, it's amazing that despite all the serious efforts to propagate large families, numbers are still so relatively few. There must have been a serious leakage (I mean of people leaving). And what about the South African immigrants ? Though to be fair, there are probably quite a few families who have been sent off to the bush to promote the sect in rural areas.
Also, thanks to Toad of Sydney for his comment. Yes, it did occur to me that the fellow treating his children to food made with unholy hands (and in the iniquitous city centre) might be one of the top guys and therefore beyond criticism.
Oliver
Guest: John
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
About the relaxation of rules under Bruce Hales. His approach will clash with the hardliners who advocate the "sue the bastards" and "treat them as though they are dead" approaches.
I see a major split comming; a bigger and better than Aberdeen split; due to modern communications the event will be well publicised rather than Aberdeen which was mainly contained within Scotland, UK. This will lead many to reconsider the nonsense that has been "preached" to them over the last 40 years.
Roll on liberation for the many!
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
The Woodcock story continued from December 31st, 2002
I was amazed to receive a very cordial letter from Philip Woodcock this lovely snowy morning to let me know that, “having made enquiries, it does not seem possible for any contact to be made with Mr Bruce Hales during his visit this time, due to a very tight schedule, but we do expect to have him with us again a little later in the year”.
Philip admits to having thought and moved independently and failed to recognise Divine Sovereignty. Perhaps this is why he was shut up for a few months. Now that the thaw in our relationship has set in, I find him extremely pleasant, amiable, chatty, intelligent but, alas, hoodwinked from my perspective.
On my visit to him on December 30, I expressed deep concern over the way in which JT Jr. was eulogised even though he has been in his grave since October 1970. Philip very politely disagreed. He went overboard to be amiable about it as if he almost agreed with me but could not actually say so.
Since then I have dug out my five year diary 1966 to 1970 inclusive. Here is an entry for careful thought as it reflects the changing attitudes at that time.
Wednesday February 7, 1968 – Croydon City Reading.
“Had a city reading on Apostles. Mr Purdom and Dr. Roberts were trying to make Jim Taylor an apostle while nobody else would have it. It was really very amusing.”
(Bruce Purdom was father-in-law of my dear friend Keith Groombridge of Nonington/Canterbury and Dr Shirley Roberts (male specie) was one of the last of the medical professionals in the movement).
Philip Woodcock tried hard last week to convince me of the apostolic line coming down to JT Jr., Symington (who I thought was as dry as dust), John Hales (whom I never met) and now BDH. I confess that I did like W. Bruce Hales as he appeared very open and came across really well in 1964 at a meeting that I attended in London. He also encouraged youngsters like me to take accountancy exams so I began studying a few months later. Thanks Bruce, one good deed done. I owe you a beer.
I did not buy the “apostolic line” argument in 1968 (aged 22) and still do not buy it 35 years later.
I asked Philip to leave the dialogue door open and he promised to do so. I now have the promise in writing.
A note of thanks to all those who have added little pieces since I began this story. I hope it is of interest to a wider audience including those insiders who monitor the site.
Guest: Elaine Hanley
Guest E-mail: bobedhan@localnet.com
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
Greetings, Friends! To Bradley W. in Australia: I have no doubt that you are genuine and desire to make the right choice. In entry 12/29 you state that you don't talk to your family. Although some families are difficult to deal with, 2 Tim. 3 warns "perilous times shall come and men be lovers of self, covetoous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION" etc. You also say "I am deeply religious person". In John ch 3, Nicodemus was a Pharisee, ruler of the Jews and a deeply religious man. Jesus told him, "Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." You say you have peace regarding the decision to join the Exclusive Brethren. Have you PEACE with God? 1 John 5:11-13, verse 12 reads, "He that hath the Son hath life; he that does not have the Son of God does not have life". (ETERNAL LIFE) I can't imagine joining the EBs with 2000 rules, stifling bondage, but we all make mistakes. The most important thing is not to neglect your ETERNAL soul. "What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36
Guest: Hannah Hutton
Guest E-mail: hannah.hutton@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
Note to Guy Wilson - I'm enjoying all your reports, but Bob Fleck of Bromley was not Robert Stott's son-in-law! Robert Stott's only daughter, Christine, is my mother and my father was Ben Bodman of Bristol.......
Also, I've been meaning to ask you, are the EBs being extra nice to you because of Margaret's lineage?
Regards,
Hannah
PS. We must be indirectly related now as I think your sister is my new aunt ;o)
Guest: A Current EB
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
Bradley,
Have you thought this through properly about joining the Exclusive Brethren? I hope you are not being brainwashed by the Brethren you work with. I do believe that you are genuine. But your workplace is much of a concern to me. I think my self that they have got into your thoughts.
It sounds like you are positive in coming aboard. Please talk to someone about your intentions before you make your final decission. Take no notice of Oliver. Some members now have dogs and cats. So shooting them sounds a bit extreme. As he also put it that you are not "with it" I disagree with that. I think you are with it. But more confused.
Just don't get pushed into anything to boost their membership.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
Mr Wymann
Could I ask you to delete my two notes I posted on this site. This my cause a problem with my joining the Exclusive Brethren.
Firstly, I came onto this website to ask for some guidance and advise in my joining the Exclusive Brethren. Did I get it? Well yes and no! I had a good read through some of the advise that was given to me, for which I thank those people for. But as for a certain braindead idiot from Brisbane who certainly sounds like a sandwhich short of a picnic, likes to point the finger at me as a hoax. Well I am sorry sir I am NOT. It sounds like you don't have any enjoyment in your life. So you give out sick advise to genuine people looking for real advise as your enjoyment.
I am sorry if you have been hurt by the Exclusive Brethren's. But that is by no means to drag me down with you. This is MY choice!
2.In regards to the Anon, That is all I have been doing (thinking). I will not discuss my work place on here. All I will say is that I work with very understanding people. I am aware what I am doing. I have 7 days to consider.
I wish to thank the mojority of you for your advise given to me. It is very much appreciated.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
Bob Fleck of Bromley
Sincere apologies to Hannah Hutton about Bob Fleck’s wife’s name. I thought he did in fact marry a Stott but perhaps it was Morton Stott’s daughter?
As to whether Philip Woodcock is being extra nice to me because of Margaret’s lineage (JT’s great grand-daughter) I do not know but rather doubt it. My dialogue began before Margaret came into the picture and attended a meeting on 3rd December.
In a roundabout way we are now related by marriage in that Robert Stott’s son Roger married Pamela Wilson (nee Howden) who married my brother Kenneth Wilson in 1966 and divorced around 1993. They have three children all living in Australia where Roger and Pamela got married in the Autumn (Fall for the American viewers).
Guest: Chris Jones (formerly Barber)
Guest E-mail: mangoye@hotmail.com
City, Country: Previously London, UK.
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
What is the difference between an EB and a supermarket trolley? A supermarket trolley has a mind of its own.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia (ex-UK)
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
I'm interested to see the comment by "A Current EB", 4 January, that "Some members now have cats and dogs". I remember very well the wholesale slaughter of pets that took place when JTJr introduced his "no pets" rule, though admittedly at the local vet, and not by shooting.
My father, who was a thorough-going EB but also had some humanity, took about two or three weeks to find a home (a nearby farm) for our border collie, and came under criticism for doing so (ie for not having her put down immediately).
This is yet another example of moving away from the ministry of JTJr while still holding him out as "our beloved" (ref B D Hales, Detroit, September 2002). More hypocrisy.
Oliver
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria,BC
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
I ran into my cousin and her husband last night at the store, and got the politically correct version of "apologising" for past wrongs, and an invitation to return. This was also followed by a treatus on while they may have "misshandled" cases, they were still right, because they alone represent the "assembly". This "positionally right " theory basically means that no matter what happens, they are always right, and you are always wrong-period.
I said I was very glad they were talking to us now, after so many years of turning their backs on us, but unfortionately this "new look" had come too late for their parents, they were with the Lord now. I reminded them both of the anguish they had caused. This was met by either glossing over, or outright denial- but I told them I was there- I had seen the grief they had caused.
At this point their two daughters came up, nice kids, 16 and 18, and the folks introduced them to me.I asked permission to ask them one question-"do you know the Lord as your personal saviour?" The older one simply said "no" and I told her this was the most important thing she could ever learn.Their mother, on hearing this answer, jumped in and said "of course you do". I then asked the younger one the same question, and she responded by saying she "didn't understand what I was asking." I will give the parents this- they were quite discomfitted by the exchange. Unfortunately, this is not unique-and entirely consistent with the answers [from] most of the under 40 generation.They talk freely about being in the "assembly", but when queried about their personal links with Christ-are most uncomfortable, or [don't] even acknowlege they know what you are talking about. What a tragic situation- and people are going back to that?
Guest: Elaine Hanley
Guest E-mail: bobedhan@localnet.com
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
Greetings! Remember the entry back on page 25 someone had finally been converted to Christ and told an older lady their personal testimony. The individual responded very strangely in view of the fact they had been breaking bread about 40 years. She said, "Why are you telling me that? We don't care about that here!" A favorite EB/peeb verse was 2 Timothy 2:19, "The Lord knoweth them that are his;" (The Lord also knows those that are not His.) and "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." Departing from iniquity is not bowing the knee to the "elect EB vessel". EBs should had bowed to Christ alone and crucified the flesh (PRIDE).
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: South Africa
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
Some brethren have cats and dogs???
Please tell us more?
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
Does anyone think that (with all the recent contacts to the so called "outs") has something to do with an upcoming BBC television documentry on the Brethren that John Hales has been trying to put a stop to? The documentry is said to air this Spring and does not talk very well of the Brethren. Maybe they think that with all the contacting famlies, recently, this will not give them such a bad name in the eyes of the public.
Guest: Charles Turner
Guest E-mail: charlesandrewturner@hotmail.com
City, Country: London
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
After nineteen years of silence and an almost refusal to acknowledge I exist, I am now starting to feel seriously harrassed by the Peebs. First the visit. Then phone calls suggesting I see my brothers and sisters. Then phone calls from my brothers and sisters. Then letters from other people: The last one telling me I had a responsibility to look after my elderly parents (Who happen to have four other middle aged children who are in and up until July this year refused to speak to me directly for eighteen years). The last letter pleaded with me not to burn bridges (the pot calling the kettle black - or what)?
Does anyone know how I can get them off my back for good without resorting to aggressive tactics? Their manufactured convictions and U turns absolutely disgust me. I've told them this but they still won't go away. They have developed a new form of crocodile skin.
It seems they have moved from stage 1 to stage 2 of their recruitment drive and I am worried that there are some sinister undertones to it, they are quite blatently using emotional tricks to destabalise people.
I am worried that they will soon try to start influencing my wife, (never been in) who couldn't even start to understand how appallingly they have behaved in the past. Does anyone know whether it is possible for a person to take an injunction out against the cult as a whole to prevent any further contact? I would be quite happy to spend a few hundred quid to get them of my back for good.
Plus to the people that monitor this site. If the PB's ever go on Television to express their case, I would be quite happy to tell the world what they did to me. It's not easy. But I have found telling 100% truth of the way they acted has turned hard men to tears.
If anyone can advise me on the legal position, please e-mail me directly.
Guest: V.Lovatt-Smith
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
My curiosity has been aroused having recently heard and read about 'all the visits' is, the question of how genuine is just saying 'we are sorry'?
Saying sorry means nothing if the motivation is not with pure intent.Just saying 'sorry' because they are being told to do so, doesn't stack up.
Being truly sorry is realizing, acknowledging and taking accountability the consenquences of the wrong doing done to the individial/families involved. Even compensating some people who had to leave their employment losing income and causing hardship would not hurt (I'm sure there's enough money around to do this).
Making up for other losses,such as losing children, husbands, wives, parents and siblings is not possible of course.
Just saying 'we are sorry' and that is that is not good enough.
Yes forgivness is required...but how can anyone forget losing their families???
It's easier to hate than to forgive...because that's our natural reaction to hurt. Forgiving takes much more courage and it twice as hard as hating, but in forgiveness is freedom.
Only God knows if the motivation behind all of the recent visitations is real and genuine.
He also I suspect understands if we are standing back slightly bemused and dare I say it 'sceptical'.
All genuine believers in Christ make up the 'body of Christ' not just certian groups of churches. All genuine believers in Christ are equal in the sight of God, He does not have favorites. He sees our hearts and judges us accordingly.
May 2003 bring us all a good year. Cheers.
Guest: Susan
City, Country: Qld
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
I have read some of the web site with interest.
My Husband is ex-brethren and their are a few people on this site who are known to us.
To thoses who have moved on with their lives like my husband, you have the world at your feet.
For those who are still trying to find their way, may you find peace with yourself at sometime in this life. Continue to talk with your friends and families that are (out)for your search of happiness. For they are the ones who will truely understand.
I only understand what I have been told but never experienced. Bless you all
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: jkewer@dodo.com.au
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: January 7, 2003
I left when I was 20 (1974) and I have now been married for 28 years and have never looked back. Apart from missing my family, at least I know that my children will not have to go through the things that I did.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 7, 2003
Comparison of translations of the Brethren’s “charter” – just curious!
Until recently I had almost forgotten about II Tim 2 v 19.
JND puts it thus “Let every one who names the name of [the] Lord withdraw from iniquity”. Is this where the idea of being withdrawn from originated? It seems strange terminology to me.
The Authorised version puts it thus: “Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity”. Whose iniquity?
The New Revised Standard Version puts it thus “Let everyone who calls on the name of the Lord turn away from wickedness”. This, (to me) indicates turning from one’s own wickedness rather than withdrawing from others that I think are evil.
The NIV puts it thus: “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness”. Likewise, seemingly and perhaps almost certainly one’s own.
Are there any theologians out there who can let me know the original Greek concept?
The three adjectives, 1 withdrawing, 2 departing and 3 turning all give somewhat different meanings. Has Darby therefore been the root cause of the problems, quite unconsciously, having been in his grave over 100 years?
Comments welcomed.
Guy Wilson
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 7, 2003
re:2 Timothy 2,19
This is an excellent example of the brethren's interpretation and also taking a scripture to an extreme. The scripture is plain enough, no matter what version one chooses- turn away from sin, iniquity, unrightiousness- but- what constitutes"iniquity"? Wearing a wristwatch? Having a cat? Daring to challenge the leaders? Demanding scriptural verification? Or even a diferent view of some doctrine- those points that one may feel strongly about, but cannot with certainty declare them 100% valid- scripture says we see dimly now, but then face to face. So the definition of "iniquity " seems to be somewhat subjective- not a charge to bandy about lightly.
Same applys to the "eating " ministry- JTjr made that an issue back in 1960 and declared all "eating " was on the same level as the breaking of bread-without one shred of scripture to back it up. Indeed to declare such lowers the Lord's supper to the level of an ordinary meal
Corintheans 5 vs 11 clearly states
if anyone called brother be fornicator,or avaricious, or idolitor, or a drunkard, or rapacious, not to mix with him; with such a one not even to eat.
Notice how the specific sins are clearly listed-and also note they are sins that would affect the public testimony. The list is not open ended, for anyone to interpret as they see fit, or use as an abuse of power. What the pb's have done is take scripture out of context, apply their own reasoning to, and demand that all adhere to it, or they are "withdrawn from" It is an enormous abuse of power. The epitome of that was the Pharisees demanding the Lord's death on the basis of their interpretation of scripture. I also find it somewhat interesting that JTjr himself, on the testimony of numerous witnesses- would fit into the catagory [drunkeness] of someone we cannot associate with, nor eat with. Bit ironic, isn't it?
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@carlyle.vic.edu.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Guy,
I appreciate your posting, and the invitation to respond. So here is my humble submission.
I think you would agree at some stage there is abundant evidence that he was quite consciously the root cause, rather than unconsciously, as you suggest.
Darby was totally convinced that he and only he could interpret scripture properly. He started this whole systematised approach off - nothing started with the drunken womaniser or his desciples. Darby broke off with his own family (they all 'went to Rome') after breaking off with the Church of Ireland. He may have disagreed with Newton or Mueller, but without a doubt it was his way or else. To justify his actions, he found verses like II Tim 2:19 and jiggered them to his liking. Intepretation was not enough, he had to literally alter the working in the bible, and it would appear that this was not an isolated instance. That is pretty heavy stuff - none that have followed him have gone that far!
Given his education and gift with languages, he found it relatively easy to convert the poor and uneducated to his beliefs, as they were rather easily impressed. If anyone challenged him, he either showed up their comparative congnitve deficiencies by brandishing his knowledge of biblical languages and his 'saintly' manner, or simply booted them out. The open brethren went on to become a true Christian religion, while Darby's actions inevitably resulted in a cult. Was he aware of what he was doing?
Does he remind you of anyone recent?
Guest: Anon
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
2 Tim 2
Mr Wilson, Mr Clarke; this one has been debated here already: www.cloudnet.com/~dwyman/caws2.html
Guest: Bro. Francis
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: California
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Taking fragments of scripture out of context is "par for the course" with Brethren. The overworked 2 Timothy 2 is an example. The fact that they rely on it so heavily, almost to the exclusion of all other scripture, indicates the weakness of the Brethren's position.
They ignore the fact that the Epistle to Timothy is an individual communication about individual conduct. It is not a guide to assembly conduct such as Corinthians etc..
The point of "withdrawing" in 2 Tim. 2 is that an INDIVIDUAL does it for himself.
Next, read the whole passage in context and it applies to withdrawal from two specific persons: Hymenaus and Philetus on a serious doctrinal issue. There is no hint that others than Timothy were to withdraw from them. Neither is it suggested that Timothy withdraw from persons who may not choose to withdraw from Hymenaeus and Philetus; on this point the Open Brethren apparently stand on firm ground.
Darby inserted in his New Translation the infamous clause about "by separating from them." That fragment IS NOT SCRIPTURE. It is Darby's ministry and is apparently an error. Darby added an unscriptural clause in his English translation to bolster his personal and wrongful theory of "separation from evil God's principle of unity." It's not. Darby was simply wrong.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Curiosity on II Tim 2 V 19
My curiosity is not intended to bash the dead man JND over the head but to seek a theologian who can give me the Greek interpretation.
Churchill said "Say nothing about the dead save that which is good".
I have already had one or two e-mails about JND which are very informative and for which I thank the contributors.
Guy Wilson
Guest: Current EB
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Regarding pmclarke's entry about meeting the cousins on Jan 5th. I thought I could shed some light on what must seem like the tragic and baffling attitudes EB's have.
They are constantly being told the same principles, as follows :-
1. The "Assembly" is the only right group in the world - everybody else is lacking in one way or another.
2. The "Elect Vessel" is always right - no matter what.
3. If you do not understand do not question - you will understand in the end. In the meantime do as you are told.
This produces a number of different aspects to the E.B. character
1. Point number one produces a certain arrogance and refusal not only to accept other people But also to even try to understand tham.
2. Points 2+3 produces an unquestioning mind (incidentally one of the reasons E.B.'s don't go to university is so as not to give them a questioning mind. )
3. This combination produces all in all the following mindset - ''we have got it right we can now sit back and relax while we watch the rest of The World go to seed" -a total lack of depth - there is no need to search for real truth, we already have it! -and don't you dare question it !
This explains both the technical correctness of the parents and the lack of real depth with children.
What frightens me most is the ''Don't question" bit , this potentially opens the door to great abuse by leaders. For example B.D.H. has expressed sympathy with President Bush in relation to Iraq. Now, regardless of their own opinions all E.B.'s will hold the same view. It would be regarded as almost a sin to even moot another point of view!! Cult ?
This is a very poor and scanty analysis and I would be interested to see the comments of non E.B.'s and even E.B.'s.
Guest: Elaine Hanley
Guest E-mail: bobedhan@localnet.com
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Definitely ironic. Idolatry is also listed and what is setting up a man/doctrine level with Holy Spirit and Scripture but idolatry? As I understand it, departing from iniquity means examine and judge myself first. Besides 1 Cor. 5:11, there's 2 Timothy 3:5 and Titus 3:10 to consider. As for challenging leaders or demanding scripture verification, unlike pbs, the Bereans searched the scriptures daily in Acts 17:11. I should think little of self, more of others.
Guest: Alan Carvell
Guest E-mail: alancarvell@blueyonder.com
City, Country: Dudley, England (8 miles from B'ham City FC.!!)
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Since my visit to my brother Peter (in the pb’s), I’ve only had one phone call from him since! And I was out at the time, but Jill my wife (who has never been in the Pb’s) had a 1-¼ hour chat with him! He even suggested she goes to see him and his family! (She's just purchasing some needy essentials, 1. triangle piece of cloth for the head. 2 Long jean skirt. 3 A long scruffy matted wig. 4 Pair of black bovver boots. 5 Make up remover.) Will update you if she goes! More chance of her having tea with the Queen!
Now the new year is here, I’d like to suggest we run a sweepstake for 2003 as to who has the most entries on the site, as it seems some have nothing better to do than make entries about the day’s they had in the peebs, in the lead so far Guy Wilson, 23/12/02, 24/12/02, 27/12/02, 28/12/02, 31/12/02, X2, (total of the 2 entries 885 words! No I didn’t count them I used word count!! 1/1/03, 4/1/03, 5/1/03, 7/1/03. total 10, in second place pm Clarke, 18/12/02, 22/12/02, 25/12/02, 27/12/02, 30/12/02, 1/1/03, 3/1/03, 5/1/03, 7/1/03, total 9. Third place is jointly held between Margaret Wilson & P French with 4 entries each. I’ve been down the bookies today and had £20 on the nose that Guy should do it!
I’m not knocking the site, as I think it is brilliant, but it seems to have turned into a bible bashing log of late, which is what I left the peebs for! As I’ve said before get a life forget the past and what should have been, enjoy life! Take up a season ticket in Birmingham City FC. (next season only folks, sold out this year!) Go Skiing as I did over xmas, and you won’t have time to fret and worry about the past!
PS on your prayer mats on Sunday again please as B’ham have got Arsenal (League leaders) Help!!!
Alan Carvell
Guest: A P Swanson
Guest E-mail: swansontonycath@hotmail.com
City, Country: Stanstead Abbotts, herts.
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
We see a leader who, by all accounts:-
Do we see a reformer?
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
To Alan (8 January)
I always find your contributions entertaining and interesting, as also, in their different ways, those from Guy and Margaret Wilson, PM Clarke, and Peter French (to say nothing of Bro Francis). I suggest they shouldn't be deterred by your scoring (and of course I'm quite happy for this to add 1 to my own modest score !). Personally, I have quite enjoyed the discussion of the theological non-basis of EB "separation", especially as my own immediate family are still separating from me enthusiastically and apparently having no truck with this weak-kneed visiting/apologising stuff.
Also, genuine contributions from current EB's are usually interesting....and it takes some courage to run the risk of getting caught entering or leaving an internet cafe.
My money's on Arsenal this weekend, so I have to hope Birmingham lose (I doubt whether heaven will intervene). I did watch B'ham beat West Ham at Upton Park, London in October, with Stern John scoring two good ones.
Cheers.... Oliver
Guest: Brian Giles
Guest E-mail: bunterat55@hotmail.com
City, Country: Walton on the Naze, U.K.
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Guy
Sorry, I am not a theologian,as you well know, but I can quote from Strong's Greek Dictionary of the New Testament. The Greek word for withdraw (JND) depart (AV) turn away (NIV) is aphistemi. For the purist the e has a - over it.
Great!!!! now you understand. You don't????
Depending on context it can mean to desist,desert,depart,refrain,withdraw self.
These seem to indicate an individual act which is consistent with the whole section v.19 to 26. Confirming Bro.Francis comments. Hope this helps. Brian
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Alan-
[1] which bookie are you using?
[2] sorry, we're a rugby family
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: PJFrench@Celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Guy,
I have been thinking further ...
If you read the Neatby book you'll find
"...Darby showed characteristic energy in putting his threat into execution.
He went from one place to another, seeking to enforce everywhere the adoption of his course towards Bethesda. Assemblies of saints one after another were placed under the bann [sic] of excommunication for no other sin than not being able to see that Mr. Darby was right, and Bethesda wrong. On reaching Leeds, he issued his lithographic circular, bearing the post mark of August 26, 1848, cutting off not only Bethesda, but all assemblies who received any one who went there.
Change the names and the dates and tell me who it reminds you of?
He was obsessed, in the purest sense of Obsessive-Compulsive disorder.
But wait - there is more ...
I also think the apostle Paul was similarly obsessed. Both men thought that others should emulate them, as the apostle said, "...be ye imitators of me as I also imitate Christ...". Both were also obsessed with the idea of Christ, rather than with the earthly work and sayings of the Jesus of Nazareth.
So Darby maybe thought that he was Paul? ... Paul though he was Jesus? ... just like some others we know of? So maybe this goes a long way back ... ?
Any similarities now?
I think one of Darby's worst legacies is the "last days" notion. How many more decades and centuries have to pass before people see through the doomsday prediction? Darby invented the whole concept called "premillennial dispensationalism". It's a theory built on very shaky evidence. The impact of the "last days" idea is that the brethren conclude there is no need for them to be involved in charitable works or outreach because these are the last days and the Lord knows those that are his. How many times have the peeb-popes made complete fools of themselves by declaring the end of the world? God is either telling them porkies, or they consult themselves in their closets :-)
Guest: peter
Guest E-mail: peter10@btclick.com
City, Country: Uk
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Have now heard that the activities of Henry Magahy have been repudiated. This provides a nice scapegoat for JHS.
Yet it was JHS who insisted that HM was a "fully delivered man" and "the link with FER in England". This and other comments are in print in the JHS books, and callers from the UK to JHS were often told to contact HM instead.
Brethren in HM's native city always knew he was a bit of a rogue , but attempts to convey this to JHS were met with a deaf ear, at best, and withdrawing from at worst.
Later, after HM's downfall, JHS, also in print, said that he had always doubted if HM was genuine.
Guest: Karren Brady
Guest E-mail: tickets@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: Birmingham
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Many thanks for those comments Alan in Dudley.
So nice to hear from one with such a balanced viewpoint.
I take your point regarding the lack of available BCFC tickets for this season and suggest that anyone who who like one for the remainder of this season should contact Mr A Coulles who has has one spare due to work commitments on Saturdays. There again if he had not got work committments he would no doubt have golf interests to prohibit him from going.
Thanks for the hot punting tip. I shall proceed directly to William Hill and have £20 myself.
I can thoroughly recommend the Autosport International show currently on at the NEC until Sunday. Far better than football.
Guest: Gerry Spiers
Guest E-mail: gerryspiers@fsmail.net
City, Country: Worcester
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Alan.
Arsenal will have to be at their best to get past Farnborough in the FA Cup, so Birmingham will provide just the practice they need!! God is smiling on us in Worcester - both the football and rugby clubs are currently sitting atop their respective leagues! Ah bless.
Gerry.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Reading through the guestbook fills me with a deep sadness for the loss and hurt sufferred by so many, but also hope and joy for the many who have overcome so much. I am not an ex-eb.
I have come across eb's in a family line I am researching and have noticed that there are either few or no markings on their graves. I was wondering if this is common and if those with no markings had been withdrawn from?
I wish to stay anon for now as I have close connections to current eb's and don't wish to jeopardise the situation.
Guest: Iain Gibb
Guest E-mail: Iain.Gibb@campbell-lee.co.uk
City, Country: Grangemouth, Scotland, UK
Date & Comments: January 10, 2003
Just to re-enforce what Peter said on January 9, that if Henry Magahy's activities are now 'repudiated' (what a lovely EB word I had almost forgotten), surely even the most blinkered, obsessed, brain-dead EB must surely begin to see now that Symington also stands condemned.
Nobody that I knew had any respect for HM - indeed his mother, his brother and his sister in Belfast were all withdrawn from on Symington's orders because in a family feud they had stuck together against HM - and it was Symington alone against the almost unanimous opinion of UK brethren who promoted him.
Yet Symington was supposed to have apostolic authority and prophetic insight and remains untouchable! Orwell's Animal Farm has nothing on this
Regards to all
Iain
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: oldbag_2@hotmail.com
City, Country: NSW, Australia
Date & Comments: January 10, 2003
Toad, I agree with your email, posted on Jan 3rd "all us animals are equal, but that some are more equal than others." It would seem to me that, this is still the case.
Since being kicked out in the mid 1970's (still not sure of the reason) I have yet to have any type of "Priestly" or visit. Although some extended family members are currently receiving theirs. I'm obviously not high enough up in the pecking order. Should I feel jealous or just lucky?
To Oliver,
I don't know you, but I've enjoyed reading your posts. They have reminded me of the old days.
To our 27yr old mate wanting to join the EB's, are you sure there is no Exclusive girl involved?
To All other guests that have entered this site, I have been fascinated by all memories shared good and bad. This has been an interesting way to spend a Friday night - better than going to see a movie!!!
Guest: Rachel Moss
Guest E-mail: moss575@hotmail.com
City, Country: Oxfordshire U.K
Date & Comments: January 10, 2003
I left the PBs in 1981 when at the age of 17 I developed a mind of my own and discovered that the big wide world was not so bad after all!
My elder brother tried to convince me to go back for the first year or so but gave up when I was not prepared to live the life that they wanted.
My mother who is still in, wrote to me recently asking for birthdates and photographs of my three little girls, this was followed by a phone call from my brother who said they felt that they had been unaproachable over the years and I should feel that I could always phone for a chat, I have not replied to my mother's letter although I still miss her and it was lovely to hear from her, I would dearly love her to meet her grandchildren even though I am sure she has a hidden agenda. My children are aged 4, 2 and 6 months and the elder two would certainly wonder who they were meeting I would hate to deprive my mother of the chance to meet the children but I do not want them to end up being as confused as I was for so many years! Comments and advice would be welcomed!
Guest: Graham Frost
Guest E-mail: grahamfrost@hotmail.com
City, Country: Peterborough, U.K.
Date & Comments: January 10, 2003
Methinks someone is having a little joke with us. I believe Karren Brady is one of the top people at Birmingham City football club.
Now, would you trust a 'Karen' who spells her name with two 'r's??? It's almost as bad as having a familial line of succession!!
I hope all readers, including those still in the EB's, and those who have recently returned to the 'fold', are having a Happy New Year.
Best to all,
Graham Frost.
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
It has recently come to my notice that one of the EB objections to the use of computers (never mind that they employ mercenaries to use them on their behalf)is the theory that taking the letters in the word "computer" and allocating them numbers times 6 (eg a=6,b=12,c=18 and so on) you come up with a total of 666, which is the number allocated to the man of sin in Revelation 13.
As this only works in English -so presumably you could get a Fench computer- I dismissed the theory as paranoid superstition on a par with astrology.
I had second thoughts when I applied the same logic to the name of the late JOHNSHALES.Maybe they're on to something after all.
Makes you think.
Best wishes to all
John
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia (ex-UK)
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
As no-one else has replied to "Suppressed by request" of 9 January (query about EB tombstones), here's my little piece on the subject.
For the first one-and-a-half centuries or so of EB-ism, it was the custom to place a quote from scripture on tombstones, such as "absent from the body and present with the Lord" or "to be with Christ, which is very much better". See the photo of J N Darby's gravestone in "Old photographs" in "Library" on this site - the stone has inscriptions galore.
Sometime after I left (1969), under the regime of Symington or J Hales, scriptural tombstone inscriptions were banned, and now all that is permitted is the name and dates of lifetime (see photo of J Hales's tombstone on this site under his name in "Contributions").
I wonder whether they have replaced Darby's tombstone with the politically correct version in some dead (no pun intended) of night operation.
My uncle Joe Boyt of Manchester and my grandfather Ernest Bedford of Amersham were both buried with quotes from the bible on their tombstones. I think this was seen not only as an assurance of their faith, but also as a witness to people passing by. Unfortunately, I think my father (died 1997) would have been given the cold and soulless new version.
The current EB leadership apparently cannot stand Christian witness on tombstones - perhaps they find expressions of faith in Jesus Christ unpalatable.
Just another example of what Ben Taylor calls somewhere on this site "progression in darkness".
Oliver
Guest: Gerry Spiers
Guest E-mail: gerryspiers@fsmail.net
City, Country: Worcester
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
This is a fantastic website - we go from 2 Timothy 2 to Birmingham City FC in one fell swoop! What's the chances of that happening at a Friday night reading meeting!!! More bizarre links requested please.
Guest: Alfred Deans
Guest E-mail: winkie_deans@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: Stourbridge, Worcestershire
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Hi Gerry.
Glad you like the new format. Can have a bit too much of this Timothy II bloke whoever he is. "both the football and rugby clubs are currently sitting atop their respective leagues!" you say but doubtless your cricket ground and racecourse in Worcester are no doubt under flood as is usual at this time of year.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Brisbane,Australia
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
In regards to comments from Gerry Spiers-a few visitors to this site could take a leaf out of your book,you certainly seem to have a life and a sense of humour,unlike some.
Fri night meetings were'nt that bad in Sydney,you could always go next door for a quick game of putt putt golf after church as we used to.
And next time you Pom's come out here for a game of Rugby League we're gonna kick your butts once again.
Cheers.
Guest: Cris Bell
Guest E-mail: seebee@xtra.co.nz
City, Country: Auckland New Zealand
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Hi Everybody, Just catching up on this site and just wanted to let ya know that we are getting on fine. Many of you will remember my entries back a few pages headed "2 Kiwis nearly free" then "2 kiwis really free". We left in June and have never looked back. The sense of freedom is unreal. We have never felt happier andnor have we ever felt closer to god than we do now. We are still in what is known as the "shut up position" and have had several visits and laterly visits termed as chin wags. They won't withdraw from us as it seems that nothing bad done these days counts as 1 Corin 5. It's all met by Galatians 6. My job is going great. First time in many yrs that I have not worked for peebs, and we have proved that the world is not the bad place that we were always told it was. Sure there are bad things that happen but like anything, if ya dont want it ya dont go after it.
Just a message to KA still in i Australia, just interested to know how you are getting on and have you left yet. Make the break as life out here is great. The stress free atmoshere is fantastic. We were offered all sorts of things to get us back like a trip to the USA and England, company car, mortage paid off, but too no avail. There is no price on freedom. We look on every day as the day the lord has given us and rejoice in him. Soo keep up the good work everyone.
Regards. Cris Bell
Guest: Hilary Tyne
Guest E-mail: htyne@yahoo.ca
City, Country: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Does anyone know anything about John Patterson, from Manchester? I'd be grateful if you would email me if you have any information.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Interesting comment from John Weightman about the words "computer" and "John S Hales" both giving the number 666, using the same basis of calculation.
This possibly throws some light on why someone painted the words "John Hales - man of sin" on a Sydney meeting room (the main one ?) a couple of years ago, as mentioned on this site at the time.
Oliver
Guest: Bill, Perth
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
With reference to John Weightman's comments of January 11, 2003. JohnSHales totals 648 close enough eh?
Guest: George Hayward
Guest E-mail: george.hayward@maxnet.co.nz
City, Country: Wellington, New Zealand
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
Responding to John Weightman and Oliver Bedford:
Don't get too carried away now! The 666 result only comes if every letter's numerical value is given the multiplier of 6 times its place number.
If you use a simpler basis, like a=1, b=2, c=3 etc, then the two phrases add up to only 111. Then you can arbitrarily assign whatever multiplier you want. If you choose 7 or 8, you can make the phrases to be 777 (perfection) or 888 (the new man)!
But this is only a frivolous curiosity, because the english alphabet has never, to my knowledge, been used as the formal basis of a system of numerical values. (Even the Roman numeral system I, II, III, IV, V etc, and X=10, L=50, C=100, M=1000, and a few others, doesn't use all the letters of their alphabet, so you can't find numerical values for every word.) However in the original languages of the Bible, Hebrew and Greek, the situation is quite different, because the respective alphabets do have numerical values assigned to every letter, (and not just in a simple sequence but in a pattern allowing larger values like hundreds and thousands to be expressed). The significance of the numerical values of words has been the basis of some very fascinating research into the biblical texts.
Blessings, -- George --
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend England
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
Sorry about this Bill from Perth, but John Weightman was right: J[60]+O[90]+H[48]+N[84]+S[114]+H[48]+A[6]+L[72]+E[30]+S[114] = 666 Near enough?
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
To Bill of Perth
The maths is as follows:
J 60
O 90
H 48
N 84
S 114
H 48
A 6
L 72
E 30
S 114
666
Regards
John
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
You can, or course do almost anything with numbers and it means nothing except how wonderful numbers are. Anyone ever seen the filme "A Beautiful Mind"
Regards
John
Guest: Kate White
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: North Wales, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
I found the site very interesting. My parents were in the Jims until 1971 (when I was 1). Although I knew most of the disagreements and troubles I never thought it important. My father died at 50 of a heart attack - 15 years ago and my mother died at 58 of bowel cancer - 2 years ago. I had a telephone call from my Uncle (Mum's brother) when she died to check that she was to be buried not cremated!!! Just recently my Uncle and Grandfather (91) have decided that they can have contact with me and my 2 sisters which I believe to be a new directive in the Jims so decided it was about time I knew more about it all.
Guest: john
Guest E-mail: filter@fsmail.net
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Are the BBC showing a doc on the peebs?
I've been told it'll be shown in March on BBC 2
but what time and day?
If anyone knows can you please email me at filter@fsmail.net
Thanks for any help Bye for now
Guest: Harriette Shurtleff
Guest E-mail: hs54128@alltel.net
City, Country: Gothenburg, NE USA
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
Have the Exclusive brethren been repressing the normal human memories of their adherents?
Recently, I, too, have had visits from 2 of my 3 EB grown children.. Hadn't seen my daughter from Oxbow. Sask for 27 years and of course, never met her husband and children. I tried to keep the short conversation "light" but when I reminded her of how much she used to giggle, she replied that she didn't remember her childhood. Comments, please. Someone tell me more about the upcoming documentary on BBC this spring. A great big thanks to Dick for this site.
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
City, Country: Berwick upon Tweed
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
George
My point exactly. Using a numerical system and attaching it to the English language is ignorance in the extreme. My comments about having second thoughts were made entirely with tongue in cheek.
John
Guest: bc
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
In regard to the BBC doco I assume this is to be shown in England only? I also would be interested to get a copy or tune in if its shown in Australia. Any details please.
On another note, the people who have been thinking of leaving have been quiet lately, have they left and are in hiding or got cold feet I wonder.
Guest: Sarah Rowlands
Guest E-mail: rowlie76@hotmail.com
City, Country: London, England
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
Just wanted to tell Mr. Carvell how sorry I was for his team's defeat yesterday !! I am no Brummie fan but I can understand how gutted you must feel.
When you support Tottenham, it's a bane to see Arsenal score !
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
To Alan Carvel, Jan 8 entry: I'd forget the past if I could. It seems one can't even hear a message in a Baptist church but be reminded of peeb deficiencies. The guy talks about how there should be unity and love among us. We only need to agree on basic fundamental doctrines, but unity, love, and peace should characterize us. That's strange but I can't recall unity, peace, and love in the peebs. In fact, I think it was nonexistant. I remember criticism, dissension, disputes, mocking. They would quote Psalm 133:1, "Behold, how good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" They knew how to say great things but couldn't put them into practice. When I finally die then I'll be able to forget, praise the Lord Almighty, my Savior.
Guest: Roger the Dodger
Guest E-mail: fishwick@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: Hall Green Birmingham
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
In response to Sarah Rowlands concerned posting.
Mr Carvell has allegedly had a complete hard drive failure on his PC. He would like to thank all his avid followers for their concern in his time of sorrow.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes to get his PC fixed. Had Birmingham won I imagine it would have been fixed quite quickly and we would all have had the gloating details. Might have been better for Birmingham if the floodlights had failed completely rather than delaying the start of the match for an hour.
Guest: Alan Carvell
Guest E-mail: alancarvell@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Dudley, Birmingham, England, near the Wolves, West Brom & the Villa!
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
Well, well, what happened to all your prayers for Birmingham FC then?! ½ hour late with the kick off due to the lights failing, it seemed Heaven wouldn’t intervene, so the Devil sure had a go!
I had a few private e-mails from EB’s saying Arsenal would do it, including Oliver Bedford, OK I’ll accept defeat this once! I’ll say this once & only once, (this hurts!!) Arsenal were BRILLIANT and by the way Oliver you are sneakily heading into the lead with my sweepstake!
Thanks Sarah Rowlands for your comments 13/1/03 but believe it or not, I did not feel gutted, I thoroughly enjoyed it, it brought back memories of my childhood days in Rathbone Rd. meeting room, listening to the preaching’s there and the sheer enjoyment I got from that!!!!
Also thanks to Gerry Spiers comments, but come on, Worcester & Birmingham? we may only be 30 miles away but you can’t compare Rugby & Cricket with FOOTBALL!
I hope I have not offended Mr. pm Clarke & Guy Wilson etc. with my sweepstake comments, as it was not my intention, but it has all gone quiet! (Bet they went to the Blues v Arsenal match to see what all the fuss was about!?) I’m starting to worry now I might be moving up the league in the sweepstake my-self! (More than we can say for B’ham City FC.!)
All the best from Steve Bruce, Karren Brady (with 2 r’s) yes she does have a nice r’s!
Alan Carvell
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
One thing I have noticed, and it seems to be consistant, is the way pb's act- completely programmed- it's almost like attempting to have a conversation one of those telephone answering machines.
They seem to have a canned patter[ almost rehearsed]"we-may- have- been - wrong-in-how-we-treated--you-but -we -are-still-right- so-you -should-come- back-into -the-assembly" There's no point in asking them what changed their mind- or if they have any concept of the grief they have caused.There's no point in asking them how they reconcile the "elect vessell" of yesterday telling them one thing- which they unquestioningly did,with what the "elect vessel"is telling them to do now-even though it is completely contradictory.If they are right now, were they wrong before?
This lemming like behaviour is a complete contradiction of scripture- where the emphasis is on the individual first, then the collective second.There is no such thing as "group salvation"- it is extremely personal"if any man hear my voice", "repent and be baptised, each one of you". Somehow all this has been submerged by mass mentality- really mind controll.The startling thing[ at least to me] was you don't realise it untill you're out of it. How could anybody in their right mind go back to that?
Guest: anon
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
For aspirant numerologists, rather than spending long nights with a calculator and the Kabbala, you might like to try lcamtuf.coredump.cx/evilfinder/
With apologies to the host of this site, it came up with the following:
Thus, "dickwyman" is 45355.========================
**** THE PROOF THAT dickwyman IS EVIL ****
D I C K W Y M A N
4 9 3 11 23 25 13 1 14 - as numbers
4 9 3 2 5 7 4 1 5 - digits added
\____/ \____/ \____/ \____/ \_/
4 5 3 5 5 - digits added
Add 18, the symbol of bondage - the result is 45373.
Turn the number backwards, divide by 38 - the symbol of slavery. The number is now 983.
Subtract 52 from the number - this is the symbol of approval for the sin, written backwards. It gives 931.
Turn the number backwards, subtract 21 - the symbol of the greater sin. The number is now 118.
Turn the number backwards, and add 23 - the symbol of death. The number is now 834.
This number, when read backwards, gives 438. This, written in octal, gives 666 - the number of the Beast.
Enough said - QED
=======================================
Rather convoluted, but not much more so than some other attempts one sees...
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
Since we are now employing numerology, my submition is phrenology-the estimation of charactor and intelligence by the conformation of the skull. An ancient art, too be sure, but probably of similar value.
Guest: Mary
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
QED, it seems to me you move in even more 'mysterious ways'. I suppose you have to, in order to try and get your point across. I, for one, don't understand it.
Guest: John Gibbs
Guest E-mail: mandy_gibbs@fastmail.fm
City, Country: Johannesburg, South Africa
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
I received a call from my brother in Canterbury, England offering to help us get an ancestral visa to emmigrate to the UK. I imagine they would have a problem "recovering" us South Africans by remote control. From what my brother said, it would appear that they see us almost as their "mission field" and that we should be "gathered in" before the Lord's comming. This would explain the apparent zeal and persistance they have shown with others on this site.
On the 2 Tim 2 discussion - In my view, this is a prime example of how the brethren have propogated erroneous teaching by taking half a verse out of context. The Firm Foundation in verse 19 is not separation. The foundation is salvation through the blood of Christ. This foundation has a double sided seal. The first, how we are to treat others - "the Lord knows those that are his" - don't judge others and the other side is how we are to deal with undesirable things in our personal lives.
Lastly, a message to the pommie football punters, I wouldn't put any money on your cricket team at the World Cup in SA next month!
Guest: Francis Mortyn
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: San Diego, Southern California
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
On January 18th please take a moment to reflect on the recorded dialogue: "Who do you say that I am?" "Thou art the Christ." "Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." . "As we watch Peter struggle with himself, often stumble, love his Lord and deny Him, speak rashly and act impetuously, his life reminds us that our Lord did not come to save the godly and strong but to save the weak and the sinful. Simon, an ordinary human being, was transformed by the Holy Spirit into the 'Rock,' and became the leader of the Church." --from "Lesser Feasts and Fasts." . January 18 is for us Anglicans' a day to remember the Confession of St. Peter. The Brethren miss much by rejecting the Calendar of Saints.
Guest: Angela Gulley
Guest E-mail: angelaotton@aol.com
City, Country: Reading, Berkshire,, England
Date & Comments: January 15, 2003
Angela Otton (nee Gulley)
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: January 15, 2003
A few weeks ago, Margaret Wilson recommended George Orwell's "Animal Farm".
Here's another fantastic book - "Communism", by Professor Richard Pipes, an expert on Russia, published last year. It's not very long, only 150+ pages, but a riveting read. You can order it from Amazon.
One very striking section is his account of the difficulties faced by Stalin's immediate successors, who knew that Stalin was seriously over the top and had run a dreadful system, but could not publicly disown him and his system because they derived their own legitimacy from that system. Then Kruschev moved somewhat in that direction. Pipes describes the amazement of Gorbachev and Yeltsin on visiting the West and finding they could have open and honest discussions with people. Eventually, of course, the closed system collapsed as foreign ideas filtered in, the iron discipline could no longer be maintained, and Gorbachev realised that Soviet Communism was finished. But the time that elapsed between Stalin's death and the final collapse was almost forty years.
Food for thought......
Oliver
Guest: Phil
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: January 15, 2003
Dear Anon of 14 January 2003
The site you refer us to demonstrates the stupidity of numerology. If one types in "The Quick Brown Fox" the answer is that such is evil. The same probably applies to all the Disney characters including Snow White.
Guest: John McMullan
Guest E-mail: dove@oberon.ark.com
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
To the Guest who is anon Jan5.
On the matter of deciding to join the Exclusive brethren. All my family are in the EB and I was raised in it also.They are forbidden to have any contact with me for the past 40 years and I am talking about four brothers and two sisters plus many children whom I have never been allowed to meet. I am a Christian now and have put my trust in The Lord Jesus Christ and He has accepted me into His Church which is the Body of Christ made up of all true deciples of Jesus Christ. My advice to you is to be sure of your own salvation which does not depend on which group you join but solely on the Lord Jesus Christ. Please ask him about your decision IN His Name John McMullan
Feel free to write to me directly as I understand your reason to be anon on the Internet
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail: j.mytton@uel.ac.uk
City, Country: Beckenham, UK
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
The other day I did a quick search using google.com with the words "love bombing" and cults. From the first few websites listed I came up with these quotes. Also there is a URL which seemed
interesting to me and given below.
I think the EBs are apology bombing us - the thing about bombing is that the person being bombed usually has no control over the dropping of the bombs. They may try to shoot the bombs down but even that is impossible if they don't know they are coming. The EBs therefore use surprise and an insistence on seeing them NOW.
Just a thought.
Here are the quotes:
The opposite of love-bombing is unconditional love. Love-bombing is highly conditional.
The cults will love you to death while you represent a prospective convert to their group. As a member a tight family love will surround you as you faithfully promote their cause.
However, when it is clear that a prospect will not join the group or a member voices doubts, create waves, or leaves the group, all love ceases.
Indeed scorn is immediately heaped on these individuals and remaining members are told not to have any contact with them.
Mind-control techniques such as love-bombing are designed to bypass a person's intelligence and especially his critical-thinking skills..When a... person suddenly receives an overwhelming amount of love and acceptance, it is extremely difficult for him to stand back and assess the reasons for this or question something he desperately doesn't want to have disappear.
I think that Love Bombing is a technique widely used to initially entice, and then to later control and manipulate. We don't have to be in a cult to be "love bombed", or not a big cult anyway. Love Bombing can be employed by one person to who wants to control another.
We all know the stereotype of the dishonest lover or abusive spouse who keeps their partner chained to them by frequent and often dramatic assertions of love. People get away with everything up to and including murder by convincing their victims that they love them.
Love Bombing: A mind control cult practices love bombing or false love. When you first join the cult you will gain instant friends, you'll be hugged and everyone will want to talk to you. For someone who is lonely or comes from out of town this is especially wonderful. However, after a while this "love" becomes conditional on your performance and/or you measuring up to the cult's unpublished standards. If you ever leave the cult then you know you will lose all of your new friends just as quickly as you gained them. Like an unhealthy marriage relationship, love is switched on and off to control. Of all of them, this is probably the most effective implement in the mind control tool box.
We are relational beings with the ultimate aim of regaining a relationship with the God who created us. It only requires common sense to see the power this "love bombing" tool could have on someone. We have all seen it at work in the cults, at work in manipulative relationships and at work as peer pressure in schools and society in general. This false love is a distortion of true love which is defined in 1 Corinthians 13.
www.comprehensivechristian.com/How-Cults-Deceive-People.html
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail: j.mytton@uel.ac.uk
City, Country: Beckenham, UK
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
I have been very concerned over the recent activities of the exclusive brethren. The apology bombing is only part of it.
Now I understand they are changing the status of some of those who consider themselves 'out'.
Today I learned that one person has had her status changed from 'withdrawn from' to 'shut up' without her permission. I also heard that an older couple previously withdrawn from have been 'restored' - yet they also were not asked nor do they attend the meetings.
I have repeatedly said that it is time we took control - isn't it time we let them know that we 'withdraw from' them?
Recently a friend quoted what he thought was a quote from George Orwell 'Whoever controls the past controls the future, [but] whoever controls the present controls the past.'
Jill
Guest: Elaine Hanley
Guest E-mail: bobedhan@localnet.com
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
To Francis Mortyn, January 14 entry: The rock that the Lord built his church on was the answer that Peter gave to the Lord's question, "Who do you say that I am? Peter answered, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." You admit that Peter was a sinful man. Why would the Lord Jesus Christ, the sinless Son of God build his church on a sinful man? In Peter's first epistle 4-8 he writes, "And coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of God, you (only born again persons John 3:3) also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Continuing verse 6 quotes Isaiah 28:16, "BEHOLD I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER STONE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." This precious value, then, is for you who believe, but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER STONE," and, A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE", for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word and to this doom they were also appointed." Hope this helps and I know there are others on this site able to say much more.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
We should not be deceived by this "Age of Recovery" -it is nothing more than further proof of the PB arrogance and pride-as if they have the exclusive right to extend or withold "fellowship" or the "assembly". Their despising of the work of God in believer's souls puts them at variance with the Lord, and they are so blinded they cannot see it.
I find it interesting how defensive they become when asked about their personal links with the Lord [this is appearently not a priority] They are quite uncomfortable when questioned about personal salvation, and take umbrage at the suggestion that it is a distinctive possability many of their young people have no personal links with the Lord at all. Indeed, this is not surprising-it would be quite surprising to find it otherwise- for the last 40 or 50 years or so,the sole preoccupation has been "issues"- not the gospel
Indeed, the PB claim that they have to "know who they are breaking bread with" takes on quite a diferent light when it is suggested to them that they are in fact breaking bread with unbelievers- their own children- and even they themselves, while claiming to be the "assembly" have no link with the Lord themselves. No, these poor souls are merely exibiting just another example of "cult " thinking and action- the "apologies" are not sincere- because an apology without repentance is no apology at all. When the cloud moves [the next whim of the elect vessel] they will jump to be in line with the "current voice of the spirit" no matter what that may be. All you can be reasonably assured of is it won't be based on scripture. However, no matter what their agenda is, the Lord is above all- and they are finding out things and hearing things they most certainly hadn't planned on- and who knows, maybe their consciences will begin to work, and they will come to a knowlege of the truth afterall. We can only hope and pray for them [and even telling them we are praying for them quite unnerves them- how could that possably be?]]
Guest: John
Guest E-mail: filter@fsmail.net
City, Country: Hillingdon, England
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
I trying to find out when the BBC IS showing
the doco on peebs. It was due to be showen in Jan
but the BBC had to change it to March, I think
somone must know?
Any information would be most helpfull Thanx...........
John
Guest: Naomi Robson
Guest E-mail: nlrobson@telus.net
City, Country: Calgary, Canada
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
Reading through some of the entries and find it hard to believe anyone would return to the cultish behaviours of this group. I certainly haven't been contacted and there don't seem to be any actual names of people that have gone back. Being wound up constantly in rules and regulations and who's doing what, where and when and reporting all these wayward folks, is exactly what the Devil wants....keeps everyone from praising our Savior and leading others to Him. Too bad all of us can't experience as the Gaithers wrote in their wonderful song, "He touched me, and now I'm whole".
I'd be glad to hear from anyone who wishes to send me an e-mail. God's richest blessings to all. Naomi
Guest: Debbie Cantley
Guest E-mail: debbie@eastcombe.com
City, Country: Gloucstershire, UK
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
I have just returned from holiday to discover that my parents made an unannounced trip to see me (a 200 mile round trip), fortuneately whilst I away. They left a letter saying they "wanted to put things right".
I considered the situation for a couple of days and then called them. I asked my father if they wanted to talk to me as my parents or as members of the brethren. He hesitated and then said "Of course, as your parents". I have agreed to meet my parents again (with my 2 sisters also there) on Monday 20th.
After this telephone conversation I decided to search the website for some information and was delighted to find this site.
I am horrified by the reality that is dawning on me. I have been out for 21 years and until now not met anyone else who left or has had similar experiences. Until now I have lived with a dreadful millstone of guilt - now I feel a mixture of anger and pity. I believe we should all be responsible for our own actions, although I wonder if there is a case for diminished responsibility because of the pressure some are are under.
Having read about so many other "visits" I cannot decide whether or not to go. I would like to try and tell them "remember it was me who withdrew from you" and that they should be ashamed of themselves for their consistent acts of inhumanity and worst of all calling it christianity! I am curious to see what my sisters look like now, but what an emotional meeting it would be. I believe I am very strong, but I am not sure how easy it would be to take on four. I would really like to tell them that I will talk to them in 21 years time - if they have repented enough!
Comments/advice please.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 17, 2003
To anon Jan 14th regarding numerology display that Dick Wyman is evil. This is typical of a PB mentality. Anything can be interpreted, twisted or whatever to come up with the meaning they want!
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: January 17, 2003
To Debbie, 16 January
Debbie
I am copying this message onto Dick's site only because my direct email was rejected as "spam" (well, that's the first time in my life I've been called spam !)
I read your entry and sympathise very much with your feelings . Yes, I agree this site is very useful in showing us we are not "on our own". I think Dick Wyman is doing a great job.
The name Cantley rings a big bell. Maybe you are a granddaughter of Mr Cantley of Harrow, whom we knew quite well when I was young. I remember him and his wife and daughter coming to tea with our family at Amersham when I was about 18, so about 1963 (he was the Sunday evening preacher that day). I think there were also one or two sons, one of whom might be your father.
I haven't been visited myself, and don't expect to be. However, you might be interested to see the note I have contributed in "The Visits" ("Correspondence") about the experiences of a much loved relative of mine in England.
Best wishes
Oliver Bedford
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Beckenham, UK
Date & Comments: January 17, 2003
Re the BBC Programme
Being someone involved in this I had not heard that it was due to be transmitted in January. Originally it was to have been towards the end of last year. Currently there is no news about when it will be broadcast. An announcement will be made on this site when the date is known
Jill
Guest: Anon
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 17, 2003
Time will tell whether I'm right in this, but I suspect that the forthcoming documentary about the brethren is not going to have a major impact. Anymore than a documentary about some radical Hindu sect would cause much of a stir. No doubt all those involved will enjoy their 15 minutes of fame, but it will have your average punter reaching for the remote control.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend, England
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
BBC Everyman:The Exclusive Brethren programme
Like you say [anon 17 Jan] time will tell, but I find a huge amount of interest among punters if I ever mention the strange cult I was brought up in. Of course there are always a few total wasters whose brain cells cannot function beyond picking up a glass and tipping the contents down their thoats, but these types have never had a positive impact on society anyway.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
Dick Wyman reports:-
“There have been two notable developments in BDH's first year of leadership. The first has to do with schools. … Now, wherever possible, BDH is moving to establish brethren schools.”
“The second notable development has to do with assembly discipline. As noted above, BDH inherited a sect whose defining characteristic is its willingness to eject anyone for practically anything. BDH has resolved to change this.”
Is it compulsory for the Brethren to use these schools or may they, if they wish, send their children to other schools?
If it is compulsory, what is the sanction for non-compliance?
Guest: Debbie Cantley
Guest E-mail: debbie@eastcombe.com
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
To Oliver Bedford.
Sorry you got "spammed" I dont know how that happened! But yes I am from Harrow originally. My fathers name is James Nelson, my grandfathers name was Jo Cantley (I was very fond of him, he was a lovely man). He died from a heart attack suddently in his 50's.
Try emailing me again, I didn't know I could refuse any emails?!
Debbie
Guest: Sheila Seesahai
Guest E-mail: sseesahai@shaw.ca
City, Country: Winnipeg, Canada
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
One of the things that always bothered me about being the daughter of Brethren (my parents are Tony and Elsie MacLachlan of the Winnipeg EB) was the fact that there was so much secrecy associated with the Brethren, and so much lying by omission. In light of recent events (visiting, contact) I have decided to share with anyone who wants it, something that was useful to me, in trying to figure out what was the truth about pivotal but highly shrouded events in my family's past. Anyone who is interested in hearing the tape of the afternoon reading meeting on July 25, 1970 (otherwise known as the 'Aberdeen' incident) may contact me via email. It is available on CD format and I can also provide a transcript, which was compiled by another former EB and verified by two individuals who were present at the Aberdeen meeting. Any questions on how I obtained this material can be answered backchannel. Depending on how many people are interested in receiving the CD, I may have to ask for a small amount to cover postage.
-Sheila
Guest: Suzanne Hardy
Guest E-mail: suzannehardy57@hotmail.com
City, Country: Los Angeles, CA
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
Just spent time in New Zealand. Guess What...after years of talking to my husband's mother on the porch, this time she invited us all in. Wow...the rules have suddenly changed. My husband saw his sister after 30 years - Rachael Miller Parks in Manganui. The husband said..."we have realized we have not been very friendly to all of you, and we thought that wasn't right" - so everybody had a cup of tea and exchanged pictures. I have never been in such a thing - just deal with an "ex peeb" - it was wonderful to see such a reunion - but it is all from what I can tell, not from the heart, but a direction from somebody - crazy - and they follow. My brother in law also got a call from his brother in the last two weeks saying "there is always a place at the table for you". From the outside I say, "who are they to determine who is fit for a table or in the eyes of God"...how judgemental of them. My sister in law and husband understand their motives...but I am offended by their thinking that they have privy over everyone else.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
Well, there it is, for all to see- the Aberdeen transcripts. I hadn't even seen them for over 30 years, but my reaction was just the same- incredible! We truly believed that when the brethren heard what had transpired, they would reject it en masse- but who could have believed they could pull the wool over so many people's eyes-calling it a "mystery" or an "ambush"
I find it significant, that this is the one subject that is still "off limits" for discussion. In fact BDH still refers to JTjr as "Our Beloved" [see notes of recent meetings, on this website]
I challenge anyone even thinking of "going back" to read this transcript and take up the offer to return under the "Age of Recovery" This is it-in black and white- what caused the split known as "Aberdeen" I suggest anyone who is being visited by the pb's print off a copy of these transcripts, and hand them over to the pb's, and ask if they still believe an "elect vessell' acts and speaks this way. Be intersting to hear what they say. For the record- in spite of the pb's taking legal action against many people, they never attempted to disprove the authenticity of these tapes. Initially they denied them, and suggested they had been altered, but soon decided to call it a "mystery"or an "ambush"- yeah, right!
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
Any who have any inclination to go back, or even lend an ear for an instant to the peebs latest ploy, should read Jill Mytton's recent letters again.
Some of us have very short memories. Some of us, it would appear never really left the peebs, and if they apologise enough and go back far enough, finally these poor 'controlled' souls will return to exactly what they left, or were thrown out of.
This is not a religion - this in not Christian. This is anti-christian and devilish. It is and always has been a cult and has been a system under the guise of religion, to further the aims, domain and personal wealth of a succession of self appointed dictators.
When I was a teenager someone 'in the top tier of the ranks of those in control' attempted to explain to me why such control was necessary and how it was accomplished from JND on. I read those mind control and mass hysteria books, including Hilter's writings. These methods were essential for those incapable of making the right decisions for themsleves. Those who attempted to make their own decisions had to '...be left behind...'. The timing of these lessons coincided with me being stopped going to university, but my ability to 'inquire' had been developed just a little by this.
There has been sufficient on this group lately to wake up any who are genuinely in a quandry. However, I think most here really want to go back, and have closed their minds to any infidel like me. Maybe they should go back, for that is possibly where they do belong. Some were born to rule, some were born into servitude, and some were born into blind obedience and total bondage. So be it.
The most will return, the traditionalists and legalistc members of the peebs will break away and form a closed and more extreme religious society. The young will run amok more so than they currently are, and the cult will devour itself - and none too soon. All that is uncertain is the timing.
Guest: George Hayward
Guest E-mail: george.hayward@maxnet.co.nz
City, Country: Wellington, New Zealand.
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
Although I don't expect to be included in the current round of "please come back" visits, I have been following this saga with great interest, and have also been hearing a little more from some in New Zealand who are being visited or interviewed. For anyone who is to be visited, I offer a suggested line of questioning, by which you can show that you hold the initiative: refer to the "EB Visits" page under "Correspondence" on this site.
The sad fact is: the EB's have allowed themselves to be led astray. Our brethren, family and friends who are still in, suffer from a bondage of deep deception, and if we want them to escape, it will need our sustained earnest prayer. While to some extent, members of the "flock" are responsible for what they have allowed their "leaders" to get away with, most of us have been there too, and share that responsibility.
But now that we are out here in freedom land, we are able to offer help and understanding to those who are still bound, and we can hold the initiative for their rescue. To be most effective, we will have to surrender the short term ambition of looking for personal vindication, although that might come as a by-product later on. Remember Joseph, who said to his brothers "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." (See Genesis 50:15-21.)
Blessings,
-- George --
Guest: Brenda Bell
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Yandina Creek, Qld, Australia
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
This recruitment drive seems to be full-on in most areas. My husbands parents turned up unannounced 4 days before xmas and again at an arranged time 2 weeks later accompanied by the local heavy. They spent a couple of hours with us both times and the conversation was 95% catching up on the last 20 years, much joking and happy memories, and 5% "returning to the fellowship" topic. We got a couple of "issues" cleared up which was good but they still don't seem to have got the message that we are not coming back. Other siblings and friends(ex-EB's) have also received various phone calls (some conference calls) and visits with negative results of course. While it is wonderful to have your parents speak so freely with you, there must come a time when they realise you are not interested in returning to their flock and the contact diminishes. The bottom line is they are still under a man's instructions and doing what he says they can now do. It makes you feel so good that you have the freedom to make your own decisions and live with them accordingly. My husband was told by the local heavy that they "need more older, genuine people like yourself"! Bit of an ego boost for a 47 yr old, non church-going truck driver. Fond regards to all who remember us.
Brenda
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
It seems to me that many people, myself and my still-Peeb family included, are presently emotionally and mentally confused. More than usual.
That is, people on both sides of the official EB "line in the sand" seem deeply troubled. It appears, recent changes in the official "EXB" attitudes and approaches are unsettling for family members in most levels of the "EXB Spectrum".
Further, I believe we ALL are being used by the EB top dogs for personal, political and mind-control gain.
What to do?
I know not about what I should practically and emotionally do.
I do know I am a survivor, a success as best I can be and that I will be reunited with my physical family in an ethereal beyond. Heaven?
I do know someone/something higher than me has helped me survive and guides me.
I do believe in "God" and Jesus Christ and his loving teachings.
I despise EB "Man of God" manipulation - past and present.
--Another Anon
P.S. I sign anonymously to protect my "in" family. Dick knows who I am. Serious inquiries as to who wrote this message can ask Dick for permission to contact me directly.
Never before have I felt a need to be "anonymous" - anywhere or anytime. I now fear I might harm my EB family if I post with my name.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
Many of us are puzzled by this "Age of Recovery" The"apogogies" are pretty much "canned" [they have been told exactly what to say] However, as previously stated, an apology without repentance is no apology at all. These poor souls are simply doing what they are told. However, I suggest [using pb teaching] "the point of recovery is the point of departure"
By all means invite them into your home, exchange pleasentries, catch up on family, etc. but when the subject is raised about "coming back into fellowship" [but how one returns to what one never left is beyond my understanding] I suggest having a copy of the Aberdeen meetings printed off and at hand. Pass them over, asking them to read them- the pb's have never legally challenged their authenticity- and ask them to read the notes out loud to you. Remember- these are purported to be from the "man of God" the "elect vessell" and "our beloved"and goodness else what they call him. Ask point blank if they agree that that is the work of the Spirit of God. Trust me, this is the one subject that they don't want to deal with. They just want it to go away.
Guest: Hannah Hutton
Guest E-mail: hannah.hutton@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
I've just read the Aberdeen transcript - which I have seen before, but was only four at the time so it didn't mean much to me then (apart from never seeing a lot of my family ever again).
Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but I'd just assumed that all their meetings were like this now, that those "still-in" were there because they were happy to have so called meetings like this, condoned what happened in Aberdeen and that Bruce Hales just spouted the same sort of rubbish as that foul-mouthed drunk back in 1970? Or does Bruce not drink? Or have I got it all wrong.......???
Hannah
Guest: David Sanz
Guest E-mail: dstt0001@terra.es
City, Country: Spain
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
Dear Sirs,
I'm searching enthusiastically more pictures of JN Darby than those in the John Rylands University of Manchester. The best I've come across to so far is the one that appear on the frontispiece of Max Weremchuck's book.
Please will you be so kind to provide other graphic information of this well known Christian, as well as those places he ministered and was brought up in.
Yours,
David Sanz
Guest: Phil Townshend
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Victoria, BC Canada
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
Re: Aberdeen transcript.
That such disgusting blasphemous drivel could acually be accepted as a meeting of so-called christians is beyond belief. This is complete apostasy from the 1950's when at least the Lord's name was honored to some degree. It made me want to throw up thinking that these people are going under the name of christianity. How can any one return to such garbage? I thank God for release in 1962.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: QLD
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
Even though I wish to remain anon. I hope our friends are staying strong "re: visits" I hope that members of their family who our (still in) are genuine about their love for their families who are out.
I doubt that my husband will receive such a visit (family all out) Has anybody been approached by Friends still in the brethran???? Would be interested.
Stay strong friends
Guest: Peter
Guest E-mail: peter10@btclick.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 21, 2003
Re Sheila's offer of the tape/CD of the Aberdeen meeting, I would recommend that anyone who has not heard this to get hold of it.
The transcript, shocking as it is, does not give the full effect of what was going on. On the tape it is painfully, indisputably obvious that JTJnr is completely intoxicated. He sometimes makes several attempts to complete a sentence, and sometimes just mutters gibberish and fades away. I remember when he used to make people laugh etc, but this was something else, this tape shocked me and left me in no doubt that he was definitely out of control. The kindest interpretation would be that he had perhaps mixed taking some medication with his usual supply of Scotch, and that this was too powerful even for him.
Guest: Elspeth Leighton (nee Ellis)
Guest E-mail: leighton@dragnet.com.au
City, Country: Leeton, Australia.
Date & Comments: January 21, 2003
My father is Ken Ellis of Cowra Australia. I was born in Sydney 1966, we moved from there to Cowra in 1972.I left the brethren when I was 18.I have seen my father twice since them, (I'm now 36)but I have never seen my mother. I have 2 girls of my own who would love to meet their grandparents.I'm hoping that the cuurent situation going on in th brethren may allow this to happen.
Guest: Pete Wade
Guest E-mail: peter.wade3@virgin
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 21, 2003
Re Peter French Jan 19
Interesting comments. I would also suggest that religion and cultism have nothing to do with Christianity.
Religion is regulation. Christianity is all about relationship
All the best
Pete
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: January 22, 2003
Dick,
Thank you for you continued imput and updates on this site.
If history serves me correctly Stalin and Hitler were referred to as "The Beloved & Our Beloved". Are these guys completly ignorant, and nuts or are they another ideoligy that hates the idea of man being completly free in a modern democractic world. I'm interested to learn if Hitler and Starlin referred to people as a "Son of a Bastard", and is it recorded that they may have threatened to "Sue the Bastards".(Joke)
John
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 22, 2003
My parents were in the PBs. Praise God, I was only 1 years of age when they left. However, from what I have learnt, my poor mum suffered the most, having to give up family and friends. This is undoubtedly a cult. God is Love. He dosn't want us to seclude from our non-christian friends. Honestly, when I see them I feel totally ill. They are in bondage. It is wonderful to read the stories in this site. It is equally wonderful to hear that you have stayed closed to the Lord, too. We can only pray that your sad memories be healed by God. thank you
Guest: Laurie Twinam
Guest E-mail: Laurie@twinam.fsnet.co.uk
City, Country: Sevenoaks, UK
Date & Comments: January 22, 2003
The recent publication of part of the proceedings at the infamous 1970 Aberdeen meetings will no doubt have shocked some who visit this site. Shocks are sometimes good for us. If these details had not been ruthlessly suppressed, thousands more would no doubt have left the Jims in disgust long ago. Let me make a few comments.
1 There is no possible excuse for this kind of language from the mouth of any Christian, let alone one who assumed the role of ‘universal leader’
2 The ‘whitewash’ applied by other leaders was much worse than the original scandal. There has been systematic lying, and evil has been called good. ‘The man of God is pure’ is still used as a meaningless mantra.
3 There has been very serious dishonour to the Lord’s name. Although many brethren were kept in ignorance, the ordinary man in the street became aware, in 1970 and subsequently, that the ‘exclusive brethren’ were in disgrace.
4 A whole younger generation of Jims has been incalculably damaged, and there is good reason to doubt whether most of them truly know the Lord.
5 Return to such a set-up is unthinkable for Christians who realize these facts.
6 Certainly we should continue to pray for these misguided folk, and to help them whenever possible. Recovery and cleansing from sin depends on confession and repentance, and the blood of Jesus Christ is available, praise God, for that very purpose, for each individual concerned.
Guest: Jenny Wynne (ex EB)
Guest E-mail: N/A
Date & Comments: January 23, 2003
Why, when the leader of the "Jim's" clicks his fingers and orders his minions to go and recover their loved ones, does he expect us to play ball? I for one, if I get contacted, will not play his game. It will cause too much anguish to see my family and then probably, just as suddenly, be dropped again. My family have shunned me for years, and have called me "evil" to my face, all because I would not accept that what Jim Taylor did at Aberdeen was "of God". If the renewed contact is to be forever I might see them, and perhaps the harm done might be rectified, but it will take more than words which I know have been put into their mouths by their leader to win me round!
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Malmoe, Sweden
Date & Comments: January 23, 2003
Have just been to visit friends in England and I am puzzled to hear the Peebs use a word I did not recognize as I left 29 years ago and that word was the "Elect Vessel". Is that the silver mug they use for the wine at the Rememberance service?? They still use their strange vocabulary and they sound as if they come from another planet.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: sheerimpudence@yahoo.co.uk
City, Country: Great Britain
Date & Comments: January 23, 2003
Having quietly noticed some postings on the recent so called apostles such as JT Jr, Symington, Hales Snr and young Bruce may I please quote from an old book recently given to me by my clergyman uncle who was shunned for years by my family for going into the navy and not coming "into fellowship". He is 77 years old now. The book is entitled "The Brethren" - A brief sketch of their origins, progress and testimony, by Andrew Miller, published by G Morrish, 20 Paternoster Square, London. No date given.
Page 19 - a letter from Mr Mackintosh to a friend: "Amongst those who separated from the various organisations (referring to main line churches) were some men of considerable gift, moral weight, intellectual power and intelligence - clergymen, barristers, solicitors (lawyers in USA) military and naval officers, physicians and men of high position and property."
What a motley crew the current PB’s are, courtesy of JT Jr. and his association ministry (rubbish).
When time permits, I will add a few more quotes as long as Mr Carvel doesn’t count the number of words each time and expect me to beat other participants on this fascinating website in the sweepstakes for the maximum number of entries this year.
Guest: Gregory Morris
Guest E-mail: deiniolgpm@btinternet.com
City, Country: Hawarden, N Wales, Near Chester
Date & Comments: January 24, 2003
My parents are Timothy and Elizabeth Morris of Haywards Heath, West Sussex. My grandmother is Peggy Greeves who is still going strong at 90 plus.
I like visiting this site every so often. Such a pity that everyone seems to be so cynical. I really do appreciate what JN Darby and others since him have taught especially as to what the Church is and who belongs to it.
I think that a meeting that declares that it has no members except those members of the body of Christ is worth going to!
If they are apologising, it does no harm to receive it graciously does it? I was only a babe in arms in 1970 but brought up in a loving and nurturing meeting in Haywards Heath
Greg Morris
St Deiniol's Library,
Hawarden Flints CH5 3DF
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 24, 2003
Wow! The Brethren in Brisbane and in fact all of Queensland, Australia have been going feral.
Recently on my trip to Brisbane, all the Brethren were invited to a function at their Brisbane school. It was more of a party than a function. I was shocked at how wild the younger Brethren are in Brisbane.
At this party there was a band performing, a play by younger Brethren members, the one thing that really left me breathless was the younger Brethren girls dyed their hair bright colours. The skirts they had on were well above their knees. I am shocked at the sight of these people breaking the rules. The older Brethren never said a thing.
I am interested on what will happen at our next function?
Guest: Dave Brewer
Guest E-mail: dave@axatel.net.au
City, Country: Sunbury, Victoria, Australia.
Date & Comments: January 24, 2003
During a recent visit, ( we've been blessed with many of them of late,) I asked if the 'demolition-of-the-Berlin-wall-like'attitude shift was because of the impending BBC Documentary about the Eb's. The reply implied that ' no it wasn't'. They said the person responsible for initiating the documentary, was ' happily back in fellowship'. Yes they said they could understand our cynicism, and some of them seemed genuinely sorry for ' not acting in accordance with the gospel'
Does any one know when a letter entitled 'The Aberdeen Issue-1970' was written. It justifies JTJnr's actions and his discourse at those infamous readings and was signed by R.Gibb, J Scott,J. Graham, A Ker, J.A. Flett & D Taylor.
I wept during some of these visits, when hearing of the sickness and premature deaths within their ranks, of people I loved. Not just ordinary run-of-the-mill sickness, but real serious stuff, like Alzheimers, strokes, heart attacks, manic depression, dementia, MS and the likes. Is this because of the repressive, negative regime they have been subjected to. The Jesus we have come to know, said, "----I come that they might have life and have it more abundantly"
We would be well advised to pray for these sad, brain-washed folks, that they may have their eyes opened to see the King, the Lord of hosts ( cf Isiah c6 Vs 1-5.} And let us praise His wonderful Name, Jesus our Lord.
Guest: Lydia (Meyer) Kietzer
Guest E-mail: lydkiet@msn.com
City, Country: Oakdale MN USA
Date & Comments: January 25, 2003
Guest: Francis Mortyn
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: January 25, 2003
Dave Brewer correctly observes that we might well pray for those still trapped in the Brethren system. That is the correct response and it is open to us all. We can overcome evil with good, and excel at forgiving. This does not mean going back to wallow in their mire of self-deception and cruelty; it means setting ourselves free. You are finally free from the cult system when you can forgive them and get on with your life.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria,BC
Date & Comments: January 25, 2003
A very old pb doctrine is" the point of recovery is the point of departure" Well and good- when they visit, why not put the cards right on the table.
They still maintain Jtjr was a"pure man" and an "elect vessel" so that means they would obviously not object to reading the transcripts of Aberdeen, would they? No, they weren't "doctored" or "faked" the audio proves that- and the pb's while strenuosly objecting- never challenged it in court- for the simple reason they knew full well they were accurate. They did, however, attempt to silence anyone who raised their voice at that time by withdrawing from them. Yes, it's very nice to show pictures of the kids, and say "we might have been wrong in the way we handled your case" and "there is a place for you in the assembly" but they still don't want to deal face to face with the issue that lead up to the division 32 years ago- Jt'jr's corrupt language. Sorry, chaps, it wasn't a mystery'; nor was it an "ambush" it was just exactly what it was- corrupt language- and the scripture says "Let no corrupt word go out of your mouth" Scripture also says we are to accept witness. It tells us not to have our judgements tainted with respect of persons. It tells us we are to "cut in a straight line, the word of truth" Amazing how simple it is, isn't it, when you just take the Word of God as your guide. If not- then whose word are you taking?
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - ex Warrnambool 1982
Date & Comments: January 26, 2003
It will be interesting to see WHO actually gets these 'visits', and if there is a pattern or one which would develop.
I would like to do some statistics if people would contact me, otherwise I am restricted to what is on this site.
I haven't been visited and don't ever expect to be. I was contacted by someone from another assembly, but that was only to 'use' me regarding locating Adrian Joyce, so the waffle about me at that time was simply that, and I accept its insincere and patronising characteristics. Hell would almost have to freeze over before any where Warrnambool felt moved to even uttered a squeak.
I think it varies between a 'sham' act and an attempt to entrap thsoe who really have never left. Otehrwise they'll not come near some of us.
Guest: Elizabeth Todd (REAL NAME)
Guest E-mail: dbunting@shaw.ca
City, Country: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Date & Comments: January 26, 2003
I felt extremely sad when I read Dave Brewer's comments re the illnesses within the EB association. It was very distressing to read this and I do not pretend to know why this has happened. Do they have a loss of spiritual power??? Would that be the reason??? I suspect it may be. Pray for them that they may re-gain power with God and become a real influence for Him in this day and age of spiritual apostasy. Satan continues to be alive and well and wants to divert our attention from the crosswork of our Lord Jesus Christ to extraneous things such as, organization, doctrine -- who was right and who was wrong -- anything will do as long as it stops people from focussing on the cross and the redemptive work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
By grace alone,
Elizabeth Bunting
Only by grace,
Elizabeth Bunting
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail: mytton@uel.ac.uk
City, Country: Beckenham, UK
Date & Comments: January 26, 2003
Re the Elect Vessel - I understood that this was the name the EBs gave to their 'Man of God'.
Re the BBC programme - It is NOT true that the person who initiated the programme is now back in fellowship. It was initiated by an ex EB couple who knew the producer. They put him on to me. The rest of the story will unfold when it is shown. Still no news of when that will be.
Like Peter French - I too would like to know who gets these visits. I have not had one but nor do I expect one since I left so long ago, and since I have been called by one of them 'the embodiment of evil' and have been told that I am doing 'Satan's work'.
It seems to me that they are visiting:
I keep hoping to find a million pounds so that I can open up a half way house for those who leave without the skills to make friends, find jobs and generally fit into a world they know nothing about
Peter - if you get any responses to your question woudl you let me have the statistics too?
Jill
Guest: David Marsh
Guest E-mail: davemarsh1953@yahoo.co.uk
City, Country: Farnham England
Date & Comments: January 26, 2003
It is good to see so many folks on this site whom
we know. Many thanks to Mr Wyman for setting it up.
We would love to hear from anyone who knew either
my wife Esther (nee Ham) or myself.
Best wishes to you all
David
Guest: K
Date & Comments: January 26, 2003
I have had a recent visit from the E's. We had discussions regarding Aberdeen and they have promised to locate the tapes of the July meeting and listen. Will be interesting.
K
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: January 26, 2003
With reference to the report on Brisbane (“Suppressed by request”, January 24, 2003), it appears that the author is in the Brethren (but not in Brisbane) since he would hardly have attended the function if he was not.
He says that he was shocked at how wild the younger Brethren are and at the sight of these people breaking the rules. Does “shocked” mean “disapproving” or merely “unexpecting”? I assume the latter, since, by visiting and contributing to this site, he is breaking the rules himself. (What are the rules now anyway?)
This story appears to tie in with Dick Wyman’s report last November:-
“Something is going on in Brisbane, Australia. The current membership in that city is reported at in excess of 600. For unknown reasons, an exodus has been ordered. People are moving to New Zealand as well as to such towns as Ipswich, Caboolture, and Gympie. By one account, the population target for Brisbane is 300.”
Guest: Andy & Julie Prestidge
Guest E-mail: andyandjuliep@ihug.co.nz
Date & Comments: January 26, 2003
Guest: Anonymous
City, Country: London, England
Date & Comments: January 27, 2003
It was commonplace for a glass of whisky to be under the seat of JTJnr at the Abderdeen meetings.
If a young "brother" and "sister" had "hanky-panky", they were "shut-up" or withdrawn from (depending on what happened) because it was deemed to be unpure. I put this to my parents in 1999 as I didn't see the difference between that and what happened with [the naked woman] and JTJnr in the bedroom. I was told I should have respect for the "Man of God". I still don't understand the difference to this day.
On another note, I was approached a couple of weeks ago by my two brothers about returning. This was followed up by one of many phonecalls and the subject of computers etc; came up. My brother was trying to tell me how I shouldn't be using them even though he was happy for me to give him information from an e-mail I had received from a friend of mine.
I asked him "If computers are so wrong, then why do the Bible & Gospel Trust (run and owned by the peebs) use them to print the ministry?" He said it was ok because it wasn't for profit, my response was "you either think its right or its not, you can't have one rule for one thing and one rule for something else". I reminded him how it was hounded into us that ".. its either black or white, not a shade of grey, you can't have one foot in the assembly and one foot in the world" of which he still said "its not for profit". Why then, are they happy for someone to press buttons on a fax machine for them so they can make a living, thats for profit is it not? Its funny how he didn't know what to say.
I could say much more but it doesn't get anybody anywhere.
Guest: Dale Tooley
Guest E-mail: thelight@globe.net.nz
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: January 27, 2003
A panorama of all major Bible prophecy where we put Jesus at the very centre of all that this entails. See how Old Testament, the Mount of Olives discourse and book of Revelation prophecies are fulfilled through the preaching of the Gospel.
Dale Tooley
Hasten The Light Ministries
www.hastenthelight.org.nz
Box 31472, Lower Hutt, New Zealand
email thelight@globe.net.nz
This is a simple non commercial invitation to view a web site
Guest: Ted Druckenmiller
Guest E-mail: tedruck@quixnet.net
City, Country: Trenton, Missouri, USA
Date & Comments: January 27, 2003
MESSAGE FOR OUR BELOVED EB’S
With all the discussion expressed about persons being called and invited to return, I would like to impress everyone of us to desire to be a blessing like the hymn says, “Make me a blessing, Make me a blessing – Out of my life May Jesus shine; Make me a blessing, O Savior I pray, Make me a blessing to some one today.”
I was in that system and had my part in it, refusing to listen to several who approached me back in 1970 to 1977. I did not listen, but I carried many a concern. It was not until I was thrown out September 19, 1977 and formally withdrawn from in a so-called assembly meeting the night of September 20,1977 and had my family divided that I realized the Lord Jesus was graciously knocking at my door. In wonderful love He does that to every Laodicean. Through the Apostle John He says in verses 18,19, “I counsel you to buy of Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.” But then He even goes further and says, “Behold I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.”
It took several days till I knew the Lord Jesus came very near to me, and then five weeks till my beloved wife Esther and our two youngest sons were happily reunited as a family. (One of the worst sorrows of the Jim system is the break up of families!) That wake up period may be longer of shorter dependant upon each individual, but it is the answer in our lives to Ephesians 5:14, “Awake, you who sleep, Arise from the dead, And Christ will give you light.”
Our religious minds are slow to respond to such a wonderful appeal of love from Jesus. We were brought up in that religious mold. Everyone has been brought up in some religious mold. It is difficult to break free of religious influence. I have traveled the world over. In Abadan, Iran in 1959 I witnessed the tremendous hold of the Moslem religion, in 1985 in Bangkok, Thailand I saw the power of Buddhism upon people, then on to Bombay to witness the power of the Hindu religion with its sacred cows. Later in 1992/93 five trips to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait I felt again tremendous grief of heart for persons brought up in the Moslem world.
Brethrenism is just as hard to be delivered from as any other ism. We each need to experience a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. He is my savior and Lord. May each of us who contributes to this website make Him our very own. As our brethren visit us, in love, be faithful to them. Help them go back, not only to 1970 and the sorrowful division following the Aberdeen meetings where the fruit of alcoholism was displayed. But by searching even more deeply one finds the terrible sin of pride has caused division after division among brethren all the way back to 1848. Jesus exhorted His own during that wonderful evening, John 13 to 17 to “Love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love among yourselves.” John 13:34 and 35.
Queen Esther makes a profound statement, as she pleads before King Ahasuerus Chapter 7: 4 “the enemy could never compensate for the king’s loss.” So it is with the sorrows of brethrenism, the tremendous loss to our blessed Lord who pleaded four times in John 17 that “they may be one.” May the Lord bless us as we meditate on these few thoughts and help us “be a blessing to someone today.”
Ted Druckenmiller
Guest: Robert Gregoire
Date & Comments: January 27, 2003
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 27, 2003
In reference as to why these people are so sick physically: 1. Their dietry habits are awful. ("We dont go in for natural health things") Meat and three veg all fried, boiled, including excessive milk products and carbohydrates - anything to cause cancer/alzheimers/heart disease etc. and every one has to cook to the same standard 2. No excercise. "Bodily exercise is profitable for little (1Timothy4v8)" So thats the rule. No sport. A walk around the block is all you're allowed to do. 3. They are in bondage and unhappy. My family knew I was wrongly withdrawn from and did not lift a finger to reverse it...till now 8 years later. NO they are NOT sorry at all just regretful and sad. I respect that they would've got into trouble if they had said anything. But what control is that, when you are forbidden to exercise your God given conscience?? Its totalitarian, human control, evil. Yes they are mostly quite sick, dying the cruelest deaths in greater proportion to those outside the group. And no wonder. Christ is the healer, natural spiritual healing, from the inside out. Enjoy your freedom and live longer! :-)
Guest: Bro. Francis CCN
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: January 27, 2003
Yesterday (Sunday) morning I enjoyed as usual the liturgy of the Anglican mass. There is a place in it for the "Prayers of the People" and I am very impressed with the empowerment that comes from praying not just alone (however appropriate that too may be), but praying in "common prayer," i,e, *communally*. The Peebs are on the right track when they dedicate a specific meeting (Monday nights) to communal prayer. This is one of the several things they do RIGHT. . At "Prayers of the People" the moment comes when we can each quietly vocalize our intentions and I whispered "the Brethren" at that point yesterday. . I suggest that as we become ever more liberated and Christ-like we can gain strength by praying sincerely for those who have sought to injure us. To be Christ-like implies that we can learn to seek the good even of those who hate us and we can forgive those who trespass against us even as we know that we are forgiven. . Next Sunday I plan to remember Bruce Hales in this way, reflecting that he holds a great deal of power over many Christians and that conversion of that "elect vessel" - (silly title, isn't it? "Servant" is much better!) - could be a means to awaken Christian love and compassion in many hearts. Hey, even Herr Adolf Saddam Saul was converted on the road to Damascus! I don't think God has given up on Bruce Hales yet, do you?
Guest: Bro. Francis CCN
Guest E-mail: frank59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: January 27, 2003
Another thing the Brethren do RIGHT. Like High Anglican and Roman Catholic Christians the Peebs see the merit to scheduling the Mass early in the day, first thing Sunday morning. Too bad they don't make their "early Mass" optional rather than compulsory, but they are not very swift about seeing Christianity as a matter of *voluntary* acts and choices; their early Mass would be admirable as a CHOICE but compulsion taints it.
Guest: Cathie
Guest E-mail: babypandacutie@yahoo.co.uk
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 28, 2003
I am surprised but glad to know of the amount of EB's who have found this site and I hope you have found comfort from some of the people who have added comments. I have found some quite helpful comments in the past and for those still 'in' I hope you find peace in whichever path you take in the future.
May God lead you in the way the truth and the Light. May God guide your footsteps. One thing I have learnt is to put my faith and trust in Him and He will guide you in the way He things best. Ask Him, in faith, for guidence and He will give it to you.
Love in the Lord Jesus our Saviour
Cathie
Guest: Anonymous
City, Country:
Date & Comments: January 28, 2003
RE suppressed by request dated 27th Jan 03 from Australia. You refered to the diet ot them. I suppose you mean the brethren. Where did you get that from a load of poppycock and untrue?
Guest: Mark Gillingham
Guest E-mail: mark@courtyard-partnership.co.uk
City, Country: Liddington, near Swindon
Date & Comments: January 28, 2003
So is that the real Robert Gregoire (26/01/03) (usually known as Robbie), who used to be 'responsible' for France's Brethren, or somebody else with a similar name?
I'd love to know, and would welcome contact with him if he wishes to email me. We met a few times when in the EB's, but on the last occasion, about 4 years ago, I was waiting for a flight connection in Lyon airport, on my way back from a skiing trip, and Robbie, with a group of Brethren, were hanging around waiting as well. Although, not with a pile of skiing gear!
In answer to Peter French, regarding who is being visited, I have been visited, despite writing a lot of submissions on this site critical of the Brethren and their doctrines. And as I run a public UK charity, often featured in the local press, they are fully aware that
I don't wish to make public the content of our meeting, since I really feel quite sorry for those who came to see me, who :
All those people, all those phone calls! Of course, the unthinkable and inadmissable alternative is to admit that those poor stooges (OK, I'll include myself there), were only doing what they were told, and that the ultimate responsibility for the cruelty, heartbreak and even suicide, in some cases, lies with Taylor, Symington, and Hales.
Go back? To that? They must be joking. My heart bleeds for them. They are not all bad by any means. But they are trapped. One phrase describes the thinking that lies behind the predicament that most EB's find themselves in. Fiendishly cunning.
Thank God that it has been possible to 'move on' in our lives, but it doesn't stop us feeling sorry for those we left behind.
Kind regards to all
Mark Gillingham
Guest: Rachel Moss (Left as a teenager and now enjoying life!)
Guest E-mail: moss575@hotmail.com
City, Country: Oxfordshire, U.K
Date & Comments: January 28, 2003
Just an observation.....I live in a town with a 'Designer Outlet' shopping village and there are always PB's buying clothes there. I remember that when I was with the Peebs as a teenager, it was always important that you were seen in the most expensive headscarf - it seems that this is now the case with other clothes as well and it always makes me smile to think of everybody showing off in the latest Versace or Ralph Lauren number! I shall have to dig out my best designer gear for my impending visit!! Cheers to everyone and lets lighten things up on the website again!
Guest: W. Bradley McCallum
Guest E-mail: WBradleyMcCallum@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: January 29, 2003
Greetings to all.
It seems clear to me that the renewed contacts with those now "without the camp" are for the most part simply a new tool in the tool box of a self serving leadership, based on my own recent experiences.
However, I too believe that perhaps there are those within that perhaps do not have the desire or strength to break free, but are nonetheless genuinely grateful for the contact with loved ones, however limited, that these "priestly visits" include.
It seems to me to be important to remember that God works in ways that perhaps transcend our limited human understanding. If we believe that God cannot be limited, and if we acknowledge that our human understanding often grows over time, does it not seem right to approach matters relating to Divine things with humility, and to keep our minds and hearts open for fresh revelation from Divine Persons. Love(at times unrequited) and forgiveness(at tmes undeserving) were themes of Jesus` earthly ministry. May we all remember our own transgressions, put on sackcloth and ashes, and pray to Him who knoweth all things for understanding, and for hearts that are able to love.
with grace and peace to all,
W. Bradley McCallum
Guest: Anonymous
Date & Comments: January 29, 2003
I came across this quote and felt that it might apply to Brethren still in:
Quote from Friedrich Nietzsche:
All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time, is a function of Power and not Truth.
Or perhaps this one? (Although not by Mr Nietzsche)
Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
We are all God's creatures, perhaps Mr Hales would do well to remember this.
Guest: nonnie
City, Country: nonhire
Date & Comments: January 29, 2003
I looked up the picture of the meeting hall (during the 3day meetings in Sydney) with great anticipation, maybe catching a glimpse of someone I knew in the meeting!!!! All I saw was a photo of a heavily secured prisonlike structure.. Having fun with us Dick? LOL
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 29, 2003
Last night, in his presidential Address, George Bush adressed the Iraqui people and told them "Your enemy is not surrounding you, your enemy is ruling you"
He could have been addressing pb's- and the sad part is the Iraqui people can't see that anymore than our brethren can.
The interesting thing is all dictatorships claim an automatic succesion of authority- just as the Pharisees claimed they were decendents of Abraham. This parallels the pb's claim of continuity of the recovery, but JND did not make the claim that brethren would continue to enjoy God's blessing as a group- indeed he doubted it.
The truth is, rarely does any revival last beyond three generations without sinking back into the spiritual decadence that influenced the initial excercise, although the group itself carries on, and it is from that spiritual decadence, that another revival begins
The brethren always claimed that other groups [if they acknowleged them at all] "had no teaching" I challenge anyone in the pb's to put the Aberdeen transcripts and "Oh Depth of Riches" [JTjrs meetings on this website] alongside any of JND's writings and dare to suggest there is any comparison.
My great concern is that almost without exception, anyone who has been born and brought up in the pb's in the last 40 years, when asked if they know the Lord as their personal Saviour invariably responds to that question by saying they are "in the assembly".
My bible says" believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"-not go up the hill to the building on Tolmie avenue and you will be saved.
What is your salvation based on-a man made ministry - or the Word Of God?
Guest: "supressed by request"
City, Country: no mans land
Date & Comments: January 30, 2003
I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES PEOPLE HAVE TO BE TOLD THAT THE BRETHREN ARE NOT, I REPETE NOT A CULT!!!!
COME ON PEOPLE OUT THERE GRAB A LIFE!!!!
Guest: Bro. Francis, CCN
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: January 30, 2003
In a post yesterday, clarketrim of Canada says:
.
"My great concern is that almost without exception, anyone who has been born and brought up in the pb's in the last 40 years, when asked if they know the Lord as their personal Saviour invariably responds to that question by saying they are "in the assembly"... My bible says ... (etc.)
What is your salvation based on-a man made ministry - or the Word Of God?" .
This is quite unfair as a criticism of the Brethren. It presumes that the "Low Church' language of Calvinism defines Christianity. It does not. . The Brethren do some things RIGHT. One of them is to hold fast to the vision of the "ecclesia," translated as "the church" or "the assembly." To adhere to one's participation in the ecclesia is perfectly appropriate; she is the Body of Christ. .
This is NOT a matter of escaping frying in Hell. The Holy Church is NOT just a retailer of salvation from punishment. She is an organism, not the Safeway of Salvation. .
Salvation allegedly based on scripture alone is NOT the way either of Brethren (at their best) or of High church faiths such as Roman Catholic and Anglican. The Calvinists such as Baptists and Jehovah's Witnesses are Biblicists. They miss the reality that the basis for faith is THREEFOLD. Reason and tradition have a place right alongside the Bible, and Martin Luther's doctrine of "sola scriptura" is simply WRONG. As is his condemnation of reason. . It is appropriate to criticize Brethren for what they do WRONG but in fairness let us respect what they do RIGHT such as their adherence to the centrality of the "ecclesia," Christ's very Body and His own beloved espoused Bride. . Evangelical and "low church" sects miss much by their "me-and-Jesus" doctrines. It is to the Brethren's CREDIT that when at their well-informed best they focus on the Ecclesia, which they call the Assembly. And well-taught Brethren know that She comprises all persons baptized with water in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. I think J.T.Jr. was clear on that point. . The Brethren err if they consider their meeting in any location to be THE Assembly in that place, but few informed Peeb leaders fall into that trap (I hope). It is a folly of the "Needed Truth Brethren" to consider their meeting in a city to be THE Assembly in that city. . Please, clarketrim, look beyond the sad and shallow view of Christianity which is presented in the Calvinist sects. They are all too often ignorant of the Ecclesia. And HONOR the Peebs for (at least prior to recent decades) preserving the correct "High Church" view of the Assembly of which the Peebs are at most a purportedly "faithful remnant."
Guest: Still Anonymous
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 30, 2003
To suppressed by request of no man's land January 30, 2003. The Encyclopaedia Britanica definition of a cult reads as follows:
What more needs to be said!
Guest: Russ McDonald
Guest E-mail: mcdoanldclan@shaw.ca
Date & Comments: January 30, 2003
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 30, 2003
I have heard somewhere that JND believed that seperation did not extend to marrage, husband and wife were to stay together. Can anyone confirm this?
M
Guest: Bradley McCallum
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
In response to Francis` comments,
To say unecquivocally that something is wrong which another`s God-given conscience holds as their understanding of how God has worked in their souls, is for us to limit the ways and means in which God may work.
It is quite a different thing to say that I don´t understand other points of view as they differ from mine--Lord, help me understand; but to say that my understanding is THE correct understanding, and therefore those that differ with it MUST then-- by definition-- be wrong, is not in the spirit of Grace of 1) the current views of the traditions from whence we come, 2)the reason of the renewed mind, and 3) the Holy Scriptures.
To "bash" low church beliefs because they are different from my high church belief would be to behave in a way that is difficult to reconcile with prayers for Christian unity as found in the Book of Common Prayer. If we pray for unity, we should seek it actively, rather that acting in ways to deepen the divisions within The Church.
As we are humans with a finite capacity to understand, and a finite capacity to grasp the greatness of divine things, it is obvious that then we cannot completely encompass the scope of God`s work, either in individuals, in the churches, or in The Church.
Let us garb ourselves with humility and seek to better understand the wonder of Christianity, rather than constantly be trying to sell one denomination over another.
W. Bradley McCallum
Guest: Kingsley Truswell
Guest E-mail: kingbollocks@aol.com
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
I left 24 years ago. My parents went back 12 years ago. my brother and his wife were recruited December 2003. I fought the tears 24 years ago and won. I fought the tears 12 years ago and won. I saw and lived my daughter's pain in both these times and when she asked why?
there was no answer I could give.
Then they ring and ask forgivness?
I could break my silence and write forever but I think this lets it go
Guest: Mark Watson
Guest E-mail: radar@radarsbluesandgraphics.com
City, Country: Wollongong NSW Australia (formerly Eastwood and Picton-tahmoor EB's)
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
To that person from no mans land.
You suggest people out there to get a life.
Well around 1976 or so, I was kicked out of the "cult" and got a life, and have never looked back.
I am however deeply concerned at the maladjusted mentality of those who for some reason feel the need to post such ridiculous messages. Out here where people have got a life, most people call them idiots.
On the subject of visits.. well neither any of my family members nor myself have received any contact or visits from these "priests" who are supposedly concerned about righting wrongs. Then again, there are really no "lures" as we are all out. Myself, my mum and my 3 brothers. Sadly my father passed away in the EB's in 1979. We all have never looked back. Mum will be 71 soon, and I will soon be 45, with my brothers chasing hard at the tail. It has been a hard road at times, but I wouldn't change it. Not ever.
cheers
Mark (known to his friends as Radar)
Guest: Thomas brother of Francis (Calif.)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
Of course they have "like sheep - gone astray". In the Anglican prayer of approach "we do not PRESUME to come to the Lords table trusting in our own righteousness". How much they presume!
On a lighter note, I know who put the stuff in the air duct, at Prospect Hill Road New Melbourne Hall, when it first opened back in about 1960. Boy - did that flush them out!
On another occasion, at that same location, I took my beautiful girlfriend - which shocked them immensely! I am still happily married and she is as beautiful as ever.
p.s. I never did work out when they kicked me out... or why...
p.p.s. I've had the official visit recently, and am now invited to re-join! Woopeeee.
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com
City, Country: Melbourne Australia
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
I may add Peter, I and none of my family have ever received a visit.My brother and I were the only ones withdrawn from over Aberdeen, in Melbourne that I know of. The rest of our immediate family left later, over after a period of 5 years.I have still some relatives in. You are right P.B's. are a cult.In every sense they measure up to any dictionary definition, even in the days of JND.You are right about Darby and his dispensationalism, would you beleive this was a grab from a Jesuit priest[no doubt heretical]who in approx. 1757 published a book in Spanish on dispensationalism and a secret rapture of the inner church. Mr Darby's good mate Edward Irving [ a forerunner of Penetcostalism] was the translator of this said book:" The coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Jesuit Manuel Lacunza. This was obviously the key ingredient in Darby's formulation of dispensationalism and the Rapture, apart from the prophecies of Miss Irving while under the influence of tongues.This doctine was not readily accepted by early P.B.'s It is recorded in Dublin that Percy Hall would preach on the theme of the Rapture on Sunday morning, and in the evening Wigram [World renowned Biblical Greek and Hebrew scholar] would preach against it. Brethren in Plymouth supported the Rapture teachings while those in Bristol by and large did not [Rowdon 1967:82] As for Mr. Darby he was a man who jilted his fiance, such is the character of this man, he promises marriage and then betrays the trust of the woman who loved and did so much for him. I am referring to Lady Powescourt, who made available to Darby and others her vast wealth and influental connections to get the P.B.'s off the groud and running. Once Darby achieved his goal he had no further use for her. Darby set in motion the great evil that swept like a tidal wave over this movement to now, based on the old and tried formula: Power totally corrupts those who wield it. This power has been used continually to sever the connection of Christ wiyh his body, and replace it !
with that of a mere man. But ultimately the greatest cult is that of the SELF in all of us, ruled over by the carnal mind. The mind of Christ knows nothing of this world and continually beholds the face of His Father.God is too Holy to behold Evil, now this Holiness is WHOLE and knows no seperation: the cause of all sin.
Guest: Judi
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
To Guest: "supressed by request"
City, Country: no mans land
A definition of a cult can be found at cultwatch.com - the author of this site is often quoted in Christian publications as an authority on cults. Please have a look at the site.
Guest: Tom Frazer
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
Re: "Guest:supressed by request of no mans land
Date & Comments: January 30, 2003"
It would appear that the author is a member of the EB cult or this message is posted by one of the site monitoring entities who are paid by the EB cult.
A couple of words of advice to the author:
Guest: Darren Hughes
City, Country: Ex chippenham
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
I sit here on a friday evening having a few drinks and just think how great it is being with my family and out of the peebs. Don't get me wrong I don't hate my family or the brethren but it is just good to be free.
In fact I miss my family loads and would do anything to have them out, but life has got to go on. I have just got a new jobs and things are great for me.
I read this site with interest regularly and I think we could all do with a little livening up and I hope this email is doing this !!
Changing the subject completely, the six nations start in a couple of weeks so come on England, I'm mad for it me !!
And to the entry a few days ago I wouldn't bet on SA in the world cup later this year !!
So, anyway good luck to you all, and here's to the future. People can worship in anyway they want without having to be told.
Darren !
Guest: Heather (Bell) Dutra
Guest E-mail: hrdutra@hotmail.come
City, Country: Seattle, USA
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
I felt so moved by the entry of "Suppressed" from "No Mans Land" dated January 30th.
I'm happy to reassure you that I have indeed got a life, I "REPETE", got a life of freedom, and the ability to think for myself and to be able to make my own choices instead of following absurd rules such as not eating with others out of fellowship. I also speak on behalf of many other ex-brethren who have left and which I have had the pleasure of meeting over the years. A small number of them are real christians, the EB are not the only 'true' christians they believe themselves to be.
Ever since leaving 17 years ago I have never regretted walking out of that cult and feel extreme pity for those who choose to stay for the wrong reasons.
There is a movie called "No Man's Land" which it based on the Bosnian war, I think it is a very apt description of the brethren, waging a war amongst themselves, with some members having to live a double life in some places in order to preserve their sanity, or to experience their deep desire of sampling worldly things. Some just want to have their cake and eat it. Good on them!! Perhaps bit by bit, they will try more and more 'worldly' things without feeling guilty and then come to realise that it is not so wicked in the outside world after all.
If "Supressed" says they are not a cult, then why did you have to be anonymous? Surely you would be proud to admit who you are and to defend your religion instead of hiding for fear of getting into trouble for using a computer?.
That is if indeed you are a genuine EB, forgive me if you are not so.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia (ex UK)
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
As one of Bro Francis' fellow Anglicans, I'm surprised that he labels all "low church" Christians (including about half of the world's Anglicans) as "Calvinist"! Presbyterians and I think many Swiss and French protestants are Calvinist, with their strong emphasis on predestination (and of course no episcopacy). But evangelical ("low church") Anglicans, Methodists - and I believe Baptists, mentioned by Francis - would be quite amused to be labelled as Calvinist.
I have attended a number of evangelical Anglican churches over the last 30 plus years (as well as several "high church") and I have never heard a whiff of Calvinist doctrines on predestination.
In response to "M" of 30 January: yes, I can remember in the 1960's that it was explained in the EB's that while J N Darby had said you should not separate husband and wife (as also did Jesus and St Paul !), "the Lord (or the truth) moves on...etc etc..". I can't give you the chapter and verse in JND, but it's somewhere in his 30-odd volumes of "Collected Writings" or his three volumes of letters. You can get the collected writings on CD-ROM, and the letters are probably still available too.
Cheers.... Oliver
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
The late Fred Greenlaw wanted people to know that Darby said ignoring family relationships was 'monstrous'. I've left his Names page entry active and a letter from Darby's collected writings is incorporated into that entry. The citation is Letters, Vol 3, P35.
--RKW
Guest: Howard and Joan Morris (Penlington)
Guest E-mail: d.joanm@sympatico.caH
City, Country: Hamilton, Canada.
Date & Comments: January 31, 2003
Adding comments to my name on guest book. My husband and Ileft in l968. He has a brother still in and I have a sister still in , in England. She called me last week after 40 years of no communication.
Guest: Ngaire Thomas
Guest E-mail: Ngaire-Maz@xtra.co.nz
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: February 1, 2003
The American Family Foundation has a good definition of cults.
Cults: ‘A group or movement exhibiting great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing, and employing unethical, manipulative or coercive techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from friends and family not in the group, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservience, powerful group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment, promotion of total dependency on the group and fear of leaving it), designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders, to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.’
(Quoted from ‘Captive Hearts, Captive Minds’ by Tobias and Lalich)
Guest: pm clarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria. BC
Date & Comments: February 1, 2003
Wow!-you can't get a more clear definition of a cult than that! If anyone doubts the pb's cult like status, let them list that criteria alongside the pb ''directives'' and come to your own conclusion.
However-coming to your own conclusion is exactly what cult behaviour virtually eliminates- no individual excercise- and even once one does begin to question exactly what they are entangled in, they are so involved with family, friends, employment, even finance, it is almost impossable to break free.Even the relationship of husband and wife is not safe.
The leadership has indoctrinated these poor souls that if they even have a hint of their husband, wife, parent, child, friend, employee daring to question what they are involved in, they are to turn them in, on fear of being cutoff themselves-under the guise of ''faithfulness'' This creates enormous mental pressure on individuals, and it's a wonder more don't suffer severe depression- they see no way out.
What a contrast to how our Lord acted! I cannot better describe it than quote :
#187, little flock hymnbook
I've found a friend, O such a friend!
He loved me 'ere I knew Him
He drew me with the cords of love
And thus He bound me to Him
And round my heart still closely twine
Those ties which nought can sever
For I am His and He is mine
For ever and for ever.
If this is not your experiance, if this is not you assurance, if this is not your peace, then the answear my friends is right in the words of that old hymn, written well over 100 years ago.It's still true, because it's still the same Saviour- Jesus our Lord! And no one-no pb leader, can ever take that away from you!Never!
Guest: anon
Date & Comments: February 1, 2003
HOW TO IDENTIFY A CULT
IF THE ANSWER IS " YES" TO TEN OR MORE QUESTIONS , IT IS MOST CERTAINLY A "CULT"
Guest: Vanessa
Date & Comments: February 1, 2003
When is the bbc programe going to be aired in New Zealand? Cheers
Guest: anon
Date & Comments: February 1, 2003
Has anybody read the
Orgins of the Christian Faith?? It is by Steve Cooper!
Well worth reading
Guest: Mark Ghinn
Guest E-mail: markghinn@yahoo.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: February 2, 2003
All,
Please accept my apologies for suppressing my details on my Jan 30th entry, it was purely accidental. Sorry.
Thanks to Oliver for the comment.
M
Guest: Francis
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: February 2, 2003
Is the Brethren movement Calvinist? Read the article "Newman, Bulteel and Darby" on this site in "Contributions".
Guest: Melissa Kirk
Guest E-mail: melissa@kirk.zzn.com
City, Country: Toronto, Canada
Date & Comments: February 2, 2003
Re: Rachel Moss, you wanted comments on whether you should let your mother meet your children.
My family left the EBs when I was two, leaving my grandmother's and my sister and aunts, uncles, cousins etc. still in. As I was growing up, I couldn't understand why I didn't know any of my relatives. My parents tried to explain to me the fact that different people had different religious beliefs but I never really understood. My grandmother on my mother's side died when I was fourteen. I vowed from that point on that if they didn't want to be a part of my life, it wasn't going to be because of me. I was going to try. It took me two years to get up the courage to talk to my other grandmother. I brought her pictures and had this thought in my mind that she was going to tell me that she loved me and had missed me for so long. But she didn't. She told me that my father had taken away seven "innocents" from the brethren and that he would have to answer for what he did. And because of his bad choices, if I didn't come back to the Brethren I would never have the relationship with her that I wanted. I left feeling defeated, frustated, and sad. She died a short time later, but I will never regret having been able to see her, if only once.
Guest: anonymous
City, Country: Melbourne Australia
Date & Comments: February 2, 2003
To Suppressed bt Request
dated 30/01/03
ITS NOT WHAT, OR WHEN, J N DARBY SAID THIS, OR THAT, ITS THAT THE HOLY WORD OF GOD SAYS,
'DARE ANYONE SEPARATE WHAT GOD HAS JOINED'AND
'THESE TWO SHALL BE ONE FLESH'
The Word of GOD is to obeyed and honoured.
Guest: wbradley mccallum
Guest E-mail: wbradleymccallum@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: February 3, 2003
In reference to the remark/question "are the Plymouth Brethren Calvinist?", it is clear that that JND was what many would call a Calvinist in his early views. However, the Exclusive Brethren of the Taylor/Hales Branch have moved so far from JND`s teachings that it would be very difficult to call them Calvinists, in the common understanding of the sense of the word. In fact it could be argued that current teachings are actually anti-Calvinist in that so much of their current belief is contrary to Calvin`s writings, eg the Institutes.
Peace,
WBMcC
Guest: Francis
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: February 3, 2003
Are the Brethren Calvinists? Consider this checklist:
Guest: Graham Smith
Guest E-mail: painterinoils@aol.com
City, Country: Plymouth UK
Date & Comments: February 3, 2003
Sorry guys and gals been hiding out under an out of date e-mail address.
This site is most certainly hotting up, by the bye Peter, good to see that old hymn again, one of my favourites.
Good to see my old Pal John from Willesden signed in. No doubt you have been tracked down, as I have too, what a humungus surprise.
It was extremely humbling to be asked to forgive these great Law Lords; the forgiving is the easy part, the repentance, however on their part, will be evident when the thing that seems to upset these religeous moguls the most i.e. Mamon and inheritance issues, are dealt with by those seeking forgiveness in a righteous, unflinching and selfless way.
Graham
Guest: Bradley McCallum
Guest E-mail: wbradleymccallum@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: February 4, 2003
In response to Bro. Francis` remarks as to the Brethren and Calvinism,
"They believe in predestination"
This is a point that can be debated, as the teaching current during the course of my upbringing (I was born 1970) was directly opposed to predestination. In fact, the ranks of the "elect" are open to any who desire to subscribe to their particular form of belief, as is the situation with the Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Anglican communions, or indeed most churches.
"The Bible *literally* true"
They do indeed believe in a certain literality of Scripture(extremely selective), but their reliance on teachings of their leaders, over the course of the sect`s life, in so many areas on which Scripture is silent, is much closer to the Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Anglican communions (in their reliance on "tradition" in addition to Scripture, etc). Much of what currently governs Brethren in the Hales branch today has no Scriptural basis and is instead simply the accepted teachings of those leading, or who have led. Besides, Calvin was hardly the first person to believe in Biblical literality, but it is differences of interpreting so-called Biblical literality that makes one Calvinist or not.
"Reject governance by bishops i.e. the episcopal model seen in Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox and Anglican communions and clearly taught by St. Paul- see 1 Timothy chapter 3 and Philippians 1:1."
Whether or not episcopal governance is Pauline doctrine is indeed a question of debate, especially when read contextually. In any event, however, the current governance of the Brethren could hardly be farther than the church governance of Calvin`s teaching. It is in fact (currently, ie as of 1998) very similar to communions who believe in episcopal governance, with a very distinct ordering that is extremely hierarchal(sp?) in nature. Just as there are deacons, priests, bishops, etc, there is just as clear and recognizable an ordering of the governing minority within the current Hales Brethren. In fact, the local settings, id est "parish", the leader is called the priest. There is simply a complete absence of the presbyterian style governance that was espoused by Calvin.
"Promote theocracy. Seek civil rule by religious leaders."
This is also subject to question, for while they do indeed pray for Christian leadership, that is about as far as it goes. There is absolutely no active participation in government, e.g. no voting, and they are deeply set against such things as public school prayer. In the teaching of JHS, he clearly states that he believes monarchy to be the divine ideal of government, however also states that he feels God to have used democracy to spread the gospel through the world and to allow "the assembly" to prosper.
In other areas too there are clear and distinct practices and teachings that would make it extremely difficult to call the Brethren Calvinist. The increase in the rather mystical teachings surrounding the Lord`s Supper during JSH reign is one clear point--e.g. the real presence of Jesus as of when the bread is broken by priestly hands.
In Christian love,
WBMcC
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.chardays.co.uk
Date & Comments: February 4, 2003
I must firstly say that arguments about Calvinism do not set me on fire although I accept that such things are important to others. It seems to me that there is not much reference to them in the words of Jesus Christ in the Sermon on the Mount.
But I do have a couple of observations to make (please accept these as being made somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and with affection and respect for others).
Kind regards to all
John
Guest: Current Peeb (and happy to be where the Lord gathers)
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: February 4, 2003
Regards to Francis' comments, Scripture clearly teaches predestination and election. Eph 1.4 "According as He hath chosen US in Him before the foundations of the world" Eph 1.5 "Having predestinated US" Rom 8.30 "Moreover whom He did prediestinate, THEM He also called" We see clearly that God knows them that are His, and His election in eternity past, Malachi 1. 2,3, "Was not Esau Jacobs brother? saith the Lord, yet I loved Jacob abd hated Esau.". We find that God desires all to come to Him, but he knows the majority refuse, and yet those who are true believers are elect according to His purpose and will.
I am genuine, and dont see how any one professing christianity could ever deny such clear truth as election.
Guest: Mary
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: February 4, 2003
To Graham Smith : Do you think your 'visitors' may have been prompted by my entry of 19 January 2003, on the 'Correspondence' - 'Brethren Funerals' page ?
Guest: Graham Smith
Guest E-mail: painterinoils@aol.com
City, Country: Wembury, Plymouth, Devon UK
Date & Comments: February 4, 2003
Fiddlesticks, Oliver and Francis,
Who really wants to read JND or any of his collective writings, jottings, or any such thing?
Talk about wallowing in the mire! I think that my bible and your bible will tell you in no uncertain terms that if anyone adds, or subtracts, inclusive one would think of putting new slants on the Omnipotent Ones Word, the same will be removed from the book of life. The same thing applies to the jims, Hurt one of these my little ones and it would be better for him or her that a millstone be hung around their neck, and they be cast into the sea! (My Devon Accent coming out here). I guess that for us, it should be the sea of forgetfulnes!!!! Perhaps we should all live in the here and now. Forgive the past and get on with the future.
Hopefully by Grace
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: February 4, 2003
In reply to Anon on Steve Coopers Book. I would advise, that the letter of the Word will kill. The letter of the word can never be authenticated with absolute authenticity. Even epistemological research of the Bible will lead to dead end's. There will always be debate between scholars on a massive scale, over the authenticity of the Bible. No Truth can ever be uncovered by Man's Carnal mind, no matter how brilliant. God's word can only be communicated by spiritual means. Even the Apostle Paul was aware of this, Jesus more so, as He did not write one word in the Bible, only on the dust of the ground, knowing that the winds of time would forever sweep it away from Man's IDOLATROUS MIND. Man has made the Bible into an IDOL, and forgotten the very WORD itself, indeed they have replaced that which was in the BEGINNING, with an IDOL MADE OF INK.
Guest: Anonymous
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
To a Current Peeb (and happy to be where the Lord gathers) Feb 4 2003. If you are really so genuine and happy where you are what are you doing using a computer to read this site? We were assured during our "visit" only a matter of weeks ago that computers were still not in general use!
Guest: Graham Smith
Guest E-mail: painterinoils@aol.com
City, Country: Wembury, Devon UK
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
Thank you Mary, but My visit from the Law lords was prior to the 19th Jan 2003. To the current peeb, are you eb,as in the jims, or pb or ob, my understanding is that computers are still banned by the current eleaked vessel of the jiminites. graham
Guest: bradley mccallum
Guest E-mail: wbradleymccallum@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
In response to John Weightman`s words,
You do have a very clear and valid point in directing our attention to the sermon on the mount. Sometimes we become bogged down in the semantics of a thing and begin to drift from the point--thank you for your words.
I think we are called to constantly read Jesus` words on that hill and look for individual and/or collective direction by which to engage in a dynamic,living, current understanding of the gospel, and seek to live that out day to day.
Christe Salvator, Filius Patris, dona nobis pacem.
WBMcC
Guest: Virginia Stanners
Guest E-mail: virginiastanners@hotmail.co.nz
City, Country: Auckland New Zealand
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
Hi All
Happy to have left the peebs quite a few years ago. Have never ever looked back - not once! All these visits are just to boost up numbers. They dont need us, any more than we need them!
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
In response to Bradley McCallum: thank you for your gracious comments and best wishes. It is not unknown for me to get the bit between my teeth and race off in one direction or another. My friends sometimes tell me to be more mellow so I do my best.
Kind regards
John Weightman
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
We can read scripture, debate scripture and rehash the old debates of long ago-and totally miss the "essence" of what our Lord did and taught [in that order] Let me illustrate: We are all familiar with the story of the "Good Samaritan"- the poor chap who fell among thieves was lying at the side of the road and was passed by by the priest,and the Levite. Now it wasn't that these two religeous men didn't care- but in all likelihood, the priest was all dressed up and on the way to the synagogue to give a talk on"predestination vs election" that day, and he saw this poor chap all covered in blood, maybe vomit, and dirt, and it wasn't that he didn't care, but he just didn't want to get his hands dirty, and besides how could he stand up in front of the congregation of scholars that day with his priestly garments are dirty and bloodied? So he passed on. Next comes the Levite- and he was also on the way to church, he'd been studying up on the 600 odd historical laws written by Moses, and was going to debate them that morning- these were important issues- and he was going to"stand for the truth"and he certainly couldn't be late for that- the High priest was going to be there, and all his collegues, and this was going to be a chance to show how dedicated he was- maybe the High Priest would notice him. He also saw this poor chap lying bloodied and beaten by the side of the road, but he just couldn't stop and take care of him- he'd be late for the service- and besides that was for someone else to take care of. After all, this wasn't the "day of the missionary"- the High Priest had said so. So he passed on too. Besides, it was probably his fault he got beaten up anyway... Then along comes the Samaritan, he had very little religeous training, but he had seen a most remarkable man the other day- not in the synagogue-he was out in the fields, and all the poor and the sick folks were coming to hear him-he seemed to have the answears to their problems- no, he didn't condemn them, but after they went away, they just seemed to not want to do the stuff they had been doing- why there was even a prostitute there- she certainly hadn't been seen in church lately. And the local tax gatherer, everyone hated him, and he was seen later that day giving money back! There were rumours that a cripple was seen walking too!
Well, he was going back home now, to tell the folks what he had seen-and there-on the side of the road was this man,all beaten up and covered with blood and dirt, and vomit......And to quote Paul Harvey's ancestor...that's the rest of the story...
Guest: Suzanne R. Howell-Gleason
Guest E-mail: suzgleason@aol.com
City, Country: Seattle, USA
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
Has the BBC program been aired? Who could I contact for a cc?
Guest: GR Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
Calvinism
The great preacher, Charles Haddon Spurgeon (1835 to 1892) once wrote, "I am a Calvinist; I love "glorious Calvinism" but hyperism is too hot for my palate".
In a sermon preached on 11th December 1859 he berated harping upon one particular doctrine thus: "Let me get one part of the truth and always dwell upon it, to the exclusion of every other, and I cannot expect my master's blessing".
I have always thought that the EB's were basically Calvinist without actually realising what they were. Ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise. If only the EB's would widen their reading beyond black, red, blue, green and brown books they might wake up.
Guest: Interested
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
Doesn't an apology for judgements and actions taken indicate they accept that they were wrong?
Does this mean you are still considered Brethren?
Will they acknowledge you on the street next time and stop to say hello? Would you be admitted to their meetings? Are present members able to relax, knowing they won't have such judgements hanging over their heads.
Is there a softer approach to the rules?
Present communication and apologies are being assumed by many on this site as an indication of EB wanting to boost numbers. That can only happen with a change on their part surely?
I am also curious as to
Who really are the sinners in the world?
Guest: Phil Mortimer
Guest E-mail: philmortimer@netscape.net
City, Country: ex Brighton England
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
We haven't yet been visited by the priesthood; they'll have to get their skates on, as Miriam and I are moving to France on February 14th 2003. (As we ave no relatives left inside, I wasn't expecting a visit anyway)
Guest: Ken Schmidt
Guest E-mail: keneliz@manxnet.co.nz
City, Country: Auckland NZ
Date & Comments: February 5, 2003
My parents left the Arapohue meeting in 1956 (country assembly, since closed, near Dargaville NZ) I now meet with Christians at Rossgrove Chapel, Mt Albert AK NZ
Guest: George Hayward
Guest E-mail: george.hayward@maxnet.co.nz
City, Country: Wellington, New Zealand
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
Another comment in response to the entry by Guest: "Current Peeb (and happy to be where the Lord gathers)", dated February 4, 2003.
This phrase -- "where the Lord gathers" -- needs to be put in proper context. It sounds at first to be quite a valid reference to what I believe Christians generally would desire as per Matthew 18:20, "where two or three come together in my name, THERE AM I with them". But while apparently innocuous, in the context of brethren-speak this phrase serves as a synonym for "the right position", which of course the EB's think to be themselves "exclusively".
When I was helped to make my involuntary escape (that means, got kicked out) in 1981, I was moulded by a background of JND-influenced thinking, that there was only one "right position". But having become disillusioned to discover that the Taylor / Symington EB's were not now it, I set out to look for which of the other branches of the divisions over the last 150 years were the ones who had stayed faithful to the right way (and hopefully still valued JND). So I visited around, first the Reading Brethren, and then various Open Brethren assemblies, to see if it was possible to discern where the "truth" was faithfully held, as surely only there would the Lord's presence be real. To cover all the bases, I thought I should also look at some of the "institutional" establishments (although from misplaced prejudice at that time avoiding anything "Pentecostal"), so I visited Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists, Salvation Army and more. Surprise, surprise! I felt a real sense of the Lord being present with his people in just about every place! It didn't take long for the myth of the "right position" to be totally and permanently banished for me.
It also didn't take long for me to discover that the EB's don't have a monopoly on exclusivism! Whenever people were interested in my background, and found that I was "church-hunting", they would try to persuade me that their particular brand of christian observance was the proper one.
Before long (early 1982), I decided to settle in the local OB assembly (Beauchamp Street Chapel, Karori), for an accumulation of several small reasons: one was that I thought it was a good principle to identify with Christians in my own neighbourhood, another was the fact that I had some long-lost cousins there who welcomed me very graciously (in spite of my many EB years of self-righteous aloofness from them), another was my need for some familiar sources and language to lessen the culture-shock of the transition, and yet another was the wish to be able to say I had made a definite commitment, in order to fend off some overtures from a few small "fringe" EB groups that were operating in New Zealand at that time.
Over the next few years the Beauchamp Street fellowship turned out to be a wonderful place of gentle growth and healing, where I was enabled to rediscover, gradually and without pressure, the reality of knowing the Saviour personally. As part of this process I rediscovered some biblical principles on water baptism (so I asked the Elders to baptise me), and later on, baptism in the Holy Spirit (so I asked the Lord to baptise me). The rest is another story for another time.
To return to the opening comment, I too, am one who is currently "happy to be where the Lord gathers", and have found that to be powerfully true in some very unexpected places!
In his love,
-- George --
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Vancouver, Canada
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
To Current EB, happy in his own highly exalted state of elect.
Sir/Madam. No argument on your Scripture, God indeed does have Elected persons. He has Chosen Ones. Scripture dont lie.
Where the Lie comes in, is the ASSUMPTION that this applies to you and I as individuals, bearing in mind to whom the Scripture is written. Somewhat more serious, is the assumption that a Company of believers can claim to be The Assembly.
The choice belongs to God, and those that are known, and chosen, and Elect are known only to God.
Claiming a position like this is clearly pure vanity, and self serving. Hardly the act of a pure hearted person or congregation, no matter how well intended.
The other point of order that you and your very righteous group may want to ponder is that the very structure of the organization is fundamentally against the teaching of scripture, and is based since the events of July 1970 on a lie.
If you are happy and content to live in this lie, that is entirely fine by me. If you have any lingering doubt, however small, possibly from reading the contents of Mr. Wyman's Web Pages, perhaps then you would be able to form a truer picture of where the Lord is working, and where it is merely a work of a natural man, with all too natural delusions of grandeur.
Every belief system has its flaws, except one. You will find where that exists as you search it out dilligently, prayerfully, and without thought of what Brucie babe or the local chosen elect may think, or perhaps do with you.
Just a 2c worth, feel free to rip it apart, I'm not all that clever with Scripture, however I know a corrupt system when I see one.
Take care
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
I am very interested in comments re ExB statistic-boosting techniques.
For the have past couple of months, I have sensed that anyone who has had their "matter" reviewed, when found to have been ExB wronged, is told so and then is counted as an "active" member of the Exclusive Brethren again.
A great way to increase membership deviously? Methinks the BBC program is part of the reason. Hey, they'll be able to declare they have a very large fellowship of such and such. A totally inflated, meaningless number garnered because Joe and Jane Blowmedown were wronged 30 years-ago, we told ''em so, we now declare they were innocent and, therefore, are consider back "in". Baloney.
I personally know of people who are considered "in" again without any activity or acquiescence on their part. In one case, with outright, verbal rejection of ExB newfound courting dances.
Brucie Babe, some of us have grown up a whole bunch in the past 1,2,3,4,5, 10, 20, 30, 40 plus years. We reject all you stand for.
What arrogance you and your so-called "fellowship" possess. I believe those beneath you are blind but wonderful people. Poor souls, I pity them. They do and have denied themselves God-given, natural, human instinct to follow you and predeceasing ExB "Men of God". At huge cost to them and theirs.
Are we not all men and women of God? Considered individuals with separate accountability?
I dare you to respond.
If you want to talk to me, be a man, and state so on this site. Use your independent computer consulting company if you can't bear to dirty your personal hands.
I have your phone number and have been told by your underlings that you would accept my call. Apparently, I'm considered a "special case".
I was a JTjr experiment in 1960.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend England
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
Our dear brother Alan Carvell must be feeling concern that the saints are currently showing little interest in the fortunes of his favourite football team. It is a matter of sorrow that many of the brethren feel moved to have long religious discussions, and some are not even struggling to stay awake while reading them.
p.s. The term 'boring old farts' could not be further from my mind.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: South Africa
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
We have not been visited - yet - and don't think they will bother with us somehow, but it is very unsettling for those who have been phoned etc., This kind of thing stirs up hurts and memories which are best forgotten....
Do you know if there are any Open Brethren meetings in the Virginia, USA area? Our son lives in Middleburg, and works in Chantilly, but is battling to find a suitable church. They do attend a Bible Church in Reston, but that is quite a long way to travel.
Guest: Sandy Robertson
Guest E-mail: sjrobertson@netscape.net
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
I've heard that folk still in the Brethren read this site so here's a message for Davy Robertson of Vancouver BC.
Hi Davy, and Happy Birthday! I was thinking about you yesterday, remembering some of our childhood games and hijinks at Grandma's house and also at your place down by Marine Drive. Knight's Road? Can't recall the street name.
Mostly I was thinking about the fact that I haven't seen or spoken to you in 33 years. Which is a long time, you must admit. When I was young I used to read about families who were estranged, who didn't see each other for decades, wouldn't recognize each other on the street, and I thought: how strange. How unnatural.
But now I realize that we are those people.
Do you still have a quick smile and a shock of blond hair? Does Garth still idolize you as the perfect big brother, except when you're fighting? Do you still have cousins in Iowa, or are you cut off from them also?
If you read this it means you have access to email, so feel free to respond.
Love and happiness,
Sandy Robertson
Guest: Current Peeb
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
In responce to my last posting, no offence was intended to any regarding "where the Lord gathers". My honest belief is that the Lord is present amongst the Assemblies alone is based upon the fact that if His Word is not honoured, how can He dwell amongst us i.e. Headship, Seperation etc. whether that is the jim system or not, others have to make that decision. I belong to the so called "Tight Open Brethren", before that being in the Glanton Brethren, all having their problems. Election is divine appointment, with human responsibility a factor in it too. All who read these pages need to respond with faith to Christ, and put things right before He comes (Heb 10.37). He will not tarry long now.
Guest: Gerry Spiers
Guest E-mail: gerryspiers@fsmail.net
City, Country: Worcester
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
To Gerard Rayment re Feb 6th
I hope your cheek doesn't hurt so much now - you must have pushed your tongue right through it!!
I for one am prepared to wade through all the religous nonsence to pick out messages like yours - they brighten up life no-end.
Come on everybody - have some FUN! If you believe you are going to heaven - you will. There is no need to convince yourself, or anyone else of the fact. Love a little, and life will be so much better!
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
A known sister in the UK was today seen wearing trousers (and a headscarf) in public.
Guest: Laurie Twinam
Guest E-mail: laurie@twinam.fsnet.co.uk
City, Country: Sevenoaks, UK
Date & Comments: February 7, 2003
Sorry if this spoils the fun and games of some of you, but some of today’s issues are deadly serious and need to be faced. One of them is Iraq – and full marks to Colin Powell for his masterly exposure of Saddam Hussein’s duplicity! Another is the ghastly current Jim regime - of particular importance to some surreptious readers of this website. The transcript of the Aberdeen tape (accessed easily under ‘What’s New’ on this website) provides compelling evidence (even more damning than Colin Powell’s exposure) not only of the moral downfall of a boasted ‘universal leader’ but of the whole regime which supported him and failed (and still fails) to face the terrible implications.
For well over thirty years there has been continued systematic lying and misrepresentation about the meetings and associated events at Aberdeen in spite of widespread knowledge of the real facts.
This has resulted in a cult led and influenced by deceivers and including many deceived, replacing the original group of devoted Christian believers. This is a great dishonour to the Name of Jesus Christ, and represents a major advantage to the devil. The devil’s cunning, deception and hatred of the truth are clearly displayed in this saga.
Honest Christian believers still remaining in this cult are now faced with a stark choice. Many of them may have been kept in ignorance until now, but the current exposure provides them with an opportunity, through God’s mercy, to clear themselves from this appalling evil. At least they should cut their ties with the cult, and escape.
For some true Christians, freshly convicted, it will not be enough to simply walk away. Repentance will call for public protests, and a public renunciation, of this great affront to the Name of Jesus Christ, which has included the cruel treatment of many people of all ages, and the break-up of many families.
‘The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.’(Psalm 34.18)
Guest: David William Layton
City, Country: Amity AUST.
Date & Comments: February 7, 2003
I David woud like to know what the P.B.s are playing at. I was K.O.ed at the age of 14
now my Dad rings up and said, "Come back my son We are the only way " Give me a breack. I am BORN AGAIN SPRIT FILL,and talk in my heaven tongue so he TONY tells me I am of the devil So you tell me where the P.B,S get off ???? I will watch this space. LOVE TO ALL DAVID
Guest: Victor Congdon
Guest E-mail: jcongdon01@snet.net
City, Country: Portland, CT. USA
Date & Comments: February 7, 2003
Greetings All,
Some interesting and good comments on Calvinism have been made in the guest book over the last few weeks.
From my vantage point EB's were never five point or any point Calvinists. EBs certainly are not Calvinists today. Their current doctrine on the application of redemption is "off the wall" for they hold that their children are redeemed by being born into the "Holy Fellowship."
Do not forget that JND taught and his disciples still teach, "The Church is in breakdown." That teaching means that they are the only chosen few. A gross error.
Check it out folks; The Church is alive and well as is The Church's Head. (Alive and well even if some attend those "low churches" or those "high churches.") Salvation is God's gift and not by EB selection or choice. (Remember that if they are asking you to come back to them.)
I shall repeat a previous entry of mine. All interested and all ex-EBs should read Wayne Grudem's book titled, "Systematic Theology." Grudem takes the Reformed position but provides many alternate views. He also holds firmly to a conservative view of biblical inerrancy very much in agreement with the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy (1978).
Ephesians 2: 8-9 works just fine for me. It will work fine for you too.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
So let us continue to follow the Man who has the empty tomb.
Only by grace,
Victor Congdon
Guest: Another Peeb
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: February 7, 2003
Just to add to the predestination debate on these pages, it's worth reading the scripture in Romans in its context. Romans 8:29 says
"Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be [the] firstborn among many brethren."So before predestination there is foreknowledge, which is something unique to God. He knows from the beginning those who are going to accept Jesus as their Saviour. If you ignore foreknowledge you can't understand predestination.
Guest: A
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: February 7, 2003
Following the recent death of my only sibling, her "in-EB" family have telephoned me (ex-EB, 30 years out) several times for what I would call a social chat - all very amiable, but including "we'd love to have you back". I have just received a call from one of the 'elders' of the locality, again a social chat just to let me know they were praying for me and haven't forgotten me! How nice! I begin to wonder if there is a prize being offered for the locality/person who recruits the most returnees - e.g. cruise round the Carribbean, trip to the Barrier Reef, a year's groceries, or the opportunity to shake the hand of B.Hales! (tongue definitely in cheek)
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: February 8, 2003
Re Gerard's note, 6 February, yes I certainly hope for Alan's sake that Birmingham avoid the chop after only one season in the Premier League.
Mixing a little theology with my footy, here's an interesting quote from the article on J N Darby by "GCB" in the Dictionary of National Biography (circa 1885): "The society, which had been founded on the lines of primitive Christianity, had now developed into the sternest ecclesiasticism." The author then goes on to point out diverging tendencies in JND's personality by saying "Though Darby's works are largely doctrinal and controversial, his delight was in writing devotional and practical treatises".
Cheers
Oliver
Guest: anonymous
City, Country: Melbourne Australia
Date & Comments: February 8, 2003
WITH ALL THE FAMILY RE-UNIONS, WELL THE SELECTIVE ONES THAT IS... YES, SOME FAMILIES ARE BEING VISITED BY RELATIVES NOT SEEN FOR 25 YEARS.THERE IS NO CUPS OF TEA OR EATS, ETC.. THE RELATIVES SUPPOSEDLY VISITING TO SAY, 'HEY, WE ARE SORRY ' ETC. BUT STILL REFUSING TO ' EAT ' WITH THE ' CAST-OUTS' OR MISFITS....BUT. LOOK DON'T GET IT WRONG...WE ARE SORRY...
CONFUSED???? DON'T WORRY WE ALL ARE.
NOW, WHO IS THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION ???
LET'S..TURN TO GOD'S WORD AND FIND OUT!!!
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: February 8, 2003
As long as the pb's remained a ''closed society'' refusing to talk to us, things pretty well remained behind closed doors, but now they are talking, a very disturbing trend is emerging,because from Austrialia to New Zealand,from North America to Europe,almost without exception, almost anybody under age 40 or 50 cannot answer the simple question- ''do you know the Lord as your personal Saviour?'' There is little or no point in pursuing questions of Aberdeen, or JTjr's sad condition,which was the final straw that broke the camels back in 1970, if these poor souls do not know Christ as Saviour.I cannot think of a more appropriate scripture than the parable of the man who built his house upon the sand which although looking very impressive, when the winds and storms came, the house fell- because it was not founded on the rock.
And to all the young pb's reading this, I ask you- what is your faith based on?If all you can say is''I'm in the assembly''you are indeed in dire straits.Salvation is in Christ alone!I call on all the elders, in every place, those who are truely believers,those who can tell you the time and place where they asked forgiveness of sins and gave their hearts to the Lord, to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, FOR SALVATION IS IN NONE OTHER.
Guest: Andy Giles
Guest E-mail: andygiles_@breathe.com
City, Country: Worthing, England
Date & Comments: February 8, 2003
Hi to all, please note my new email address.
Andy
Guest: Iain Gibb
Guest E-mail: Iain.Gibb@campbell-lee.co.uk
City, Country: Grangemouth, Scotland
Date & Comments: February 8, 2003
I am always intrigued by people who consider football to be interesting, while matters relating to the God who made us and who gives us every breath of life we breathe are boring. To me, the definition of boring is to be locked into a conversation when other people are giving their commentary of a football game while those of us who find this to be the most boring subject on earth are not allowed to object. Every other enthusiast seems to recognise that what turns him on may be of no interest to others, but football aficionados seem to have no such inhibitions. Just a comment on what I have observed is a universal phenomenon.
So I must say that while I profoundly disagree with Bro. Francis' attack on Calvinism, I certainly did not find it or the subsequent entries on the subject boring.
I most certainly would never describe the EB mishmash of nonsense as 'Calvinist'.
Maybe because I come from Scotland and our national Presbyterian Church has been influenced to some extent by Calvin through John Knox, the great Scottish reformer, I see Calvinism in a much more positive light and see it as one of the rich streams of Christian tradition that has come down to us. Like most other 'isms' Calvinism has been ill-served by its most extreme followers.
Taking the one subject of Predestination, it seems to me an argument could be made that it passes all three tests that Bro. Francis mentioned, and is not just a Calvinist tenet: First - the Scriptural test, which has been well attested to in other postings in the guestbook and I need not repeat Second - the test of reason - if God is sovereign, and in absolute control, if someone is not saved it can be argued from reason, it was God's will Third - tradition. I would refer Bro Francis to the writings of such as Ambrosiaster, Augustine of Hippo, Chrysostom, Jerome and others who took issue with Pelagius. His teaching is in line with much Christian tradition.
The same could be said of other teachings of Calvin such as Perseverance of the saints.
I am not arguing that everything Calvin did and said is free from criticism, I am just arguing that he deserves far more serious consideration than being assocated with EBism especailly as we see it today.
Apologies to football fans and love to all
Iain
Guest: Pete
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: February 8, 2003
To current PB. Feb 7th
If foreknowledge is unique to God...tell me this.
Before my visit after 17 years by my Father and brother, I had "foreknowledge" just like hundreds of others, that after them saying Sorry for kicking me out from My Work, Home, House and Family...they then said " You ought to be back with us", I wonder if this makes me closer to God than them? I knew already what they were going to say. I don't need to be Clairvoyant to say that there is more chance of Birmingham FC winning the premiership this year ...than me rejoining the head scarf and white shirt club.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: February 8, 2003
As to the definition of a cult and whether the Exclusive Brethren are one:-
“Someone once said a cult is a religion that hasn’t caught up with enough people yet. I disagree with that definition, but not in the way you might think: I don’t think a cult has to be a religion al all. There are two key elements necessary for a cult:-
These two memes – commitment to mission and consequences of leaving – are sufficient to harness people’s lives and labors in a cult. When combined with some form of evangelism, a powerful mind virus is created, a power virus that spreads automatically as far as it can throughout the population.
A cult is a kind of power virus. The whole point of the thing is to give power, in the form of access to money, sex, and/or people’s energy, to the cult leader.”
Virus of the Mind – The New Science of the Meme by Richard Brodie 1996 www.memecentral.com/votm.htm
Guest: Elizabeth Bunting
Guest E-mail: dbunting@shaw.ca
City, Country: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Date & Comments: February 8, 2003
Very well done, Iain Gibb! I too consider football and hockey terminally boring in comparison with the things of God. I do believe in the sovereignty of God and his prescience (foreknowledge) of all that is and all that is to come. I do not interpret this as God excluding anyone from salvation -- we exclude ourselves by our unbelief. I can not see from scripture (as the EB's do) that anyone not in "the assembly" is not saved. All those who have accepted our Lord Jesus Christ as personal Saviour are saved from the penalty of sin. That God is sovereign and his ways are past tracing out has always been a tenet of the beliefs of Brethren people. The Exclusives have taken their position to a very unscriptural extreme. I agree with Bro. Francis in this. He is correct in praying for them so that, in the words of the Psalmist "the Lord will, in his sovereign grace, restore to them the joy of their salvation" which they seem to have lost in the labyrinth of man-made rules and regulations which has imprisoned them.
Only by grace,
Elizabeth Bunting
Guest: Connie Bunning-Barton
Guest E-mail: paco.bar@cox.net
City, Country: formerly Indianapolis, now San Diego
Date & Comments: February 8, 2003
Knock me over with a feather! I've been out for 28 years and I received a phone call today from an Indianapolis "brother". He left two messages on our answering machine and only stated that he would like to speak with me. He said he'd call back next week. He was speaking so softly and was so uncertain of his next words, that the machine kept cutting him off. One would think they'd have a script written for them to read. He left no number, nor did he say what he wanted. While
I have NOTHING to say to him, I do wonder if its news of my mother still in, however I'm more inclined to think its my recruitment call. I'll let you all know if I hear anything else.
Would love to see more names from the US on the site!
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com
Date & Comments: February 9, 2003
Predestination and Foreknowledge Response to UK Peeb.
You cannot limit God to Predestination or Foreknowledge, or indeed to any concept of the human religious mind. God can dispose of any doctrine man contrives as chaff before the wind. Once you seperate the true seed [Christ] from the chaff, you find you need the whole threshing-floor. The same passage from Rom. 8v28 illuminates the unsearchable riches of God's Purposes and counsels. It is higher than our highest dreams, and WILL bring into conformity ALL to the image of His Son. As it says "He spared not His own Son, but gives Him up for ALL....be graciously granting us ALL?" Rom 8v29-32. Paul had already delivered the final touches on this doctrine of predestination in Rom 5 v.19: "For even as through the disobedience of the ONE man the MANY were constituted SINNERS, thus also through the obedience of the ONE the MANY shall be constituted JUST." {Concordant Translation A.E.Knoch. USA Ex-Peeb.} When Christ said it was finished at Calvary was it on a 15% pass rate or 100% pass? Does not Calvin and Co. remind you of the murmering workers in the Fathers Vineyard?
Guest: Christina Waterhouse
Guest E-mail: Chrissiemanchester23@Yahoo.Co.Uk
Date & Comments: February 9, 2003
Hi all
I am searching for a friend of mine as we lost touch. His name Is Tim Smith last location Doncaster, If anybody knows where he may be please could you ask him to contact me on 07786 954422 or 01709 828384 or could you give me his number. I used to look after his son Jake and would very much like to get in touch again as I have some information for him
Many Thanks
Christina
Guest: Bro. Francis, CCN
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: February 9, 2003
This morning I named "Bruce" when we came to Prayers of the People in the Anglican Mass. Just a thought--how much good it could do if Bruce D. Hales were touched by God to work in ways that further God's plans for the thousands of people who hang on Bruce's every word. I recall once being told by a friend: to win a flock you don't go after the sheep; you capture the shepherd.
Guest: Iain Gibb
Guest E-mail: Iain.Gibb@campbell-lee.co.uk
City, Country: Grangemouth, Scotland
Date & Comments: February 9, 2003
In response to Judy Perfect, my comments about football had nothing to do with spirituality.
I hated football when I was in the EBs, I hated football when I left the EBs, I hated football when I was younger and I still hate it (although I remember being told as a child not to use the word 'hate'!)
I know plenty people who have never had anything to do with Christianity (young and old) who share the same emotions and groan inwardly when football comes up as a topic in the office or in the pub at lunch, because they are obliged to listen to a subject about which they have absolutely no interest.
I am also delighted however that there are professional footballers who are out-and-out Christians (but since I don't follow football I can't remember their names) and sportsmen like Jonathan Edwards in UK and others in USA and elsewhere, who have spoken out for Jesus Christ, have my total admiration. I think Christians in Sport is an excellent organisation.
If I enjoyed football, it would not make me less spiritual or more spiritual. I just happen to find it the most boring subject imaginable. Mind you, if cricket was spoken about as much as football, I would find that equally boring.
And for the record, I enjoy theatre, musicals, films, and many other entertainments that were banned by the EBs, and I fully concur with your application of Ecclesiastes - there is a time for football, but surely that applies only for those who enjoy it.
Best regards
Iain
Guest: Alastair
Guest E-mail: admin@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: Worcestershire
Date & Comments: February 9, 2003
Well said Judy Perfect.
Mr Gibb is the sort of person who continues to stay on his high horse with the sort of attitude that caused me to escape all those years ago. I do not miss his type at all.
There is no place for his pompous judgemental rubbish whatsoever. His attitude is reminiscent of Mr McKay the dour Scots jailer in Ronnie Barkers TV series Porridge. I myself care not one jot for football as my interests lie mainly in rock music and motor racing but each to his own.
I think Alan Carvell would have replied by now but for the fact that he has had to spend the day counting words and re jigging his betting statistics. I think that the lone punter who bet on a female contributor writing the most words will be in for a welcome financial bonus at this rate.
Kind regards to all
Alastair
Guest: Peter Smyth
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: February 9, 2003
Millions follow football a great many of whom are Christians.
Guest: Susan Appleby (nee Bazlinton)
Guest E-mail: applebybaz@waitrose.com
Date & Comments: February 6, 2003
This is an update of our e-mail address
Guest: English Football fan
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
With reference to Mr Gibbs comments perhaps we would all have a have a hatred of football if we were forced to watch the no hope boring 2 horse race that they call the Scottish Premier.
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays
City, Country: Berwick upon Tweed
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
I am looking forward to seeing Iain Gibb next month for the first time in approaching 3 decades. I now have an image in my mind of what he looks like: the dour Scottish prison officer from "Porridge."
I am delighted to discover that in addition to our mutual pleasure in discussing things theological, we also have an aversion to matters sporting.
Iain: the pleasure I have anticipating your visit has now been significantly enhanced. I am sincerely relieved that I will not have to feign interest in the Scottish FA cup.
Best wishes to all.
John
PS John Knox was once resident in Berwick and indeed married the daughter of the military governor. But then,at that time, Berwick was a major Scottish town.
Guest: Pete
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
To Alastair
I'm sorry about your attitude but your own posting is one of the judgemental I've read on this forum
Guest: Daniel
City, Country: NZ
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
All are saying that God is sovereign, yet we read that "God is not willing that any should perish"
Do you think that God in His sovereignty has given man-kind a free will to choose to either accept the Lord Jesus as their Saviour or to reject him.
When I preach the Gospel I often use the languge "whosoever" and I'm not pulling their legs !!!
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
Iain Gibb requires no-one to reply on his behalf, but because he is who he is I suspect he will not defend himself. I hope he doesn't mind me speaking up for him.
Setting to one side the merits or otherwise of predestination and perseverance, I think Iain was trying to say that some people find deep and meaningful theological discussions interesting whilst others prefer to talk about football. There are presumably some equally articulate about both topics. The problem seems to be that if theology is spoken about, those who find it boring waste no time in making their feelings clear, wheareas those who find football boring are often condemned for mentioning this.
I realise this is a very sweeping statement; most people, thankfully, are happy to let anything and everything be discussed. But it does happen -and indeed happened in this case -that the theological discussion was very quickly condemned as boring, had no place here, and was just what we'd left EB-land to get away from, whereas Iain's comments about football were equally quickly jumped upon.
To open discussion everywhere, whilst reserving the right to disagree and retaining the respect for other's point of view, and avoiding the need to be unkind!
John
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend, England
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
My good friends John Weightman and Iain Gibb.
Sorry to hear you both hate sport. I've got a suggestion of how to use up your surplus energy when the two of you get together. Why don't you get on with building that wall the Emporer Hadrian started a millenium or two ago? Make it a bit higher perhaps.
Must agree with Elizabeth Bunting about hockey tho. Played it a couple of times at school and the teacher kept on getting stressed and awarding fouls just because I raised my stick above shoulder height [That was the only way I could get enough impact to knock the opponent's stick out of their hands]. Rugby was much more fun.
Guest: Peter
Guest E-mail: peter10@btclick.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
JW says "to open discussion everywhere whilst reserving the right to disagree and retaining the respect for others point of view, and avoiding the need to be unkind!"
Well said, I raise my glass to that.
If we don't like the site we don't have to access it.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
Please....what is "football"? "Soccer " I know, My boy plays Rugby [Blind flanker or 8 man] with a passion and if he can put on another 20 lb, hopes to make a career of it. [and I have the most unrealistic idea that if I'm on the side lines he won't get hurt too badly] but what is "football"? Is this what you are calling American football"? In school "rugby" was sometimes called "English Football" to diferentuate the two games. Now, in an attempt to possably stir the pot, I say "rugby " is the most physically demanding sport there is, simply because there is only about 12 minutes of play in a football game [American football] There's nothing I'd rather do on a Saturday afternoon, than watch a good match.
Now- for those who think "sport" is "worldly"- my neices' husband is employed by "Athelites in Action"- a christian organization who supports many christian athelites, You'd be surprised how many young fellows who have found their "ministry " in sports- and they make fine role models for young kids, who sometimes see christians as dour faced old men down on most everything. We'll never win anybody to Christ if we go round preaching "if it's fun, it;s got to be sin" Put Christ first, and everything else falls into place.
Guest: Chris Jones
Guest E-mail: mangoye@hotmail.com
City, Country: Liverpool UK (Formerly London UK)
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
With reference to the ongoing dialogue on football and theology, may I suggest the ultimate compromise: combine football and religion and then Jesus could save goals!
Guest: John Gibbs
Guest E-mail: john.gibbs@halliburton.com
City, Country: Johannesburg. SA
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
I have recently heard from two sources that someone has brought a lawsuit against the Peebs for breaking up his family and denying him access to them. One source said it the case is being heard in Australia. Does anyone have information about this?
If this is the case, it may cast a new light on all the visits and apologies. Maybe I have a suspicious mind, but I find it much more plausible that they would break their separation laws if they think they are going to lose money in court cases than it is to believe that they have had a change of heart.
Guest: Dave Johnson
Guest E-mail: davidpjohnson@yahoo.com
City, Country: Texas, USA
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
In response to the posting below (dated 1/2/03), I wish you the best in your "joining" the EBs. I was raised in the Plymouth group, nothing compared to others, but yet still restrictive. You should know, that using the term "church" will no longer be tolerated once you join...and that term "join" will also be no longer used. The EBs don't refer to themselves as a "church", that term is reserved for us "worldly" folks who attend those "dens of evil" otherwise known as Houses of God, be it chapel, church or cathedral. Post a note on there in about a year from now, let us know how you are doing. I'll bet you won't be with the EBs for too long.
Guest: (Suppressed by request) Date & Comments: January 2, 2003 To AllI posted a message on here a couple of weeks ago about me joining the Exclusive Brethren's. I have never been a member of this Religion, but I am still willing to join.
I work with a couple of guy's who are members of this Church. They are happy that I am joining the Exclusive Brethren. There rules don't bother me at all. I have had rather alot of time in changing myself to this for which I am confident I am making the right move.
Also to Oliver Bedford. I am genuine. I am aware what I am doing, which is my choice. Because the Exclusive Brethren Religion didn't work out for some people, it may not mean it will not work out for me.
Guest: David Johnson
Guest E-mail: davidpjohnson@yahoo.com
City, Country: Texas, USA
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
I just had to post this personal event. Yesterday, my 2 month old daughter was baptized in the name of the Holy Trinity at St. Vincent's Episcopal Cathedral. What a beautiful service it was, very emotional. She was baptized by the Right Rev. Keith Newton, Bishop of Richborough from England. I don't remember my baptism as an infant (who does?), but I do know that it was at my parents house, in the bathroom tub. I can't imagine baptizing my children in a bathtub much less in my bathroom -- family gathered around. I am so glad I am no longer part of the Plymouth Brethren, esp. for occasions such as baptism and Holy Eucharist. What a joy to be part of a group of Christians who enjoy the celebration of the Lords life, love and future.
Guest: Tony Green
Guest E-mail: annandtonygreen@hotmail.com
City, Country: Devizes. Wilts. England
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
Now living in village off All Cannings, near Devizes. I would love to hear from any old friends from the past.
Guest: john
Guest E-mail: filter@fsmail.net
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: February 10, 2003
EB on tv
what time?
what day?
I phoned the BBC up today
they said it will be showen in March
but couldnt tell what day or what time
ANY MORE INFO ON EB ON TV ON BBC2 ON OFF ON?
Guest: Phil Townshend
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Victoria, Canada
Date & Comments: February 11, 2003
Football to Brits, Ozzies, Kiwis etc is "Soccer".
American/Canadian football is a derivation of rugby, but not very similar any more. Players rush around in all directions and are dressed as if going to the moon.
Rugby still is rugby.
Hockey to an American or Canadian is ice hockey. Hocey played on grass with bent sticks is "Field Hockey".
Now you know.
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com
City, Country: Melbourne Australia
Date & Comments: February 11, 2003
In reply to Daniel of N.Z. I find what you say is of interest to all those who put the things of our Lord Jesus Christ first. Though I may add "Jesus" is not His original Hebrew name, but a corruption of that name, [not a transliteration] which is above ALL MAMES.God is indeed sovereign, and is not willing that any should perish. Now who can ultimately resist God's Will?Truly only God has freewill, our will is modified by millions of factors, which are out of our control on the whole.Jesus had no freewill as a man, inasmuch He said He could do nothing of Himself, unless the Father gave it to Him.To go back to Rom 8.v20. again it says:"the creature was made subject to vanity[sin], not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope"."Whosoever" obviously implies "Any-body" and also "every-body"by implication: as ALL will eventually confess with their mouth and own Jesus as Lord, to God the Fathers Glory. Now it would be not to your glory, if your son was forced to own you as your father, don't you think?Now little old carnal[religious] mind hates this stuff!
Guest: (Unidentified feedback from the main page)
Date & Comments: February 11, 2003
WHOEVER WROTE THIS WEBSITE NEEDS TO SORT THEIR LIVES OUT. I CANNOT BELEIVE THAT ANYBODY COULD DEGRADE THE HOLY FELLOWSHIP OF GOD'S SON SO MUCH. IT ALMOST AMOUNTS TO BLASPHEMY.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: February 11, 2003
Dear pmclarke
Football is the game where you kick a ROUND (SPHERICAL) object, viz a ball, with your FOOT. Other games where you pick up a pointed object in your hands and run with it just don't qualify ! They may be good and energetic games, but they just aren't football.
Cheers... Oliver
Guest: Gerry Spiers
Guest E-mail: gerryspiers@fsmail.net
City, Country: Worcester
Date & Comments: February 11, 2003
To Alistair in Worcestershire
So rock music and motor racing are your passions eh? Funny that cos they are mine as well amongst others. And yes - I am an ex peeb, long time ago mind!
By the way - to those who need to know, football is the original and true name of the sport you know as soccer. The game is played by kicking a ball with ones feet - hence football. Where soccer comes from, who knows!
Anybody out there find tiddlywinks boring?!!
All the best.
Gerry.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: February 12, 2003
It's okay to joke around, no matter the occasion. BUT, let's not forget the main reasons for this forum. Aptly stated by Dick elsewhere on this site.
Methinks the footie/rugger arguments and joking would be better appreciated on a sports forum. Not here.
Guest: Wayne Kerr
Guest E-mail: waynekerr@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: London UK
Date & Comments: February 12, 2003
Sport vs Theology
Whilst I'm not a fan of football, I can recommend that if you force yourself to sit down for an evening in front of the TV and watch world champion darts or snooker then you will never call football boring again!
What I do find boring however are the screeds of religious twaddle posted in this guestbook. All those of us who believe base our beliefs on one holy book, yet to read the entries it appears we are all fighting to promote our own particular beliefs, interpretations and convictions in the same old holier-than-thou, arrogant Christian manner that I was pleased to leave behind in the EBs.
I agree with 'Pete' in that you don't have to visit the site of you don't like it, however I use the site to re-establish contact with long-lost relatives and friends and thanks to Dick Wyman's hard work I have succeeded in the past and look forward to more successes in the future. So I put up with having to wade through the 'boring' religious sparring to find it, in a manner a bit reminiscent of sitting through an EB 'city reading' in order to be able to chat to the young 'sisters' after the meeting.
There are plenty of Internet email groups for religious debate, but then of course I'd have to find something else to put me to sleep at bedtimes. So although football isn't my first love, on this website it provides a welcome break from 'boring' preaching and holy oneupmanship!
Guest: A Believer
Date & Comments: February 12, 2003
Anyone got any ideas about any locations of Renton Brethren in the North-East of England? Any help gratefully recieved
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: February 12, 2003
To the Person who wrote in CAPITALS on Feb 11. If you dont like this site, dont enter it! Who ever asked for your opinion anyway?
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: February 12, 2003
I'm not exactly sure what or who the anonymous writer was referring to on the comment of degrading the fellowship of God's Son.I will say, however, that the fellowship of God's Son, our Lord Jesus Christ-includes every person who has placed their trust in Him- in spite of claims by various groups that they "are the church"to the exclusion of all other believers in Christ.That presumptous stand alone denies the finished work of redemption in every believers soul.The scripture says" do not thou make common that which I have cleansed"
Catagorically, there can be no "fellowship within a fellowship"- and any group that claims that is in danger of assuming cultlike status- the common presumption of claiming they have a special message from God that no one else has.If nothing else, it is at least sectarian- which pb's have long claimed distancing themselves from, but in fact are without any doubt guilty of, for the simple reason that excluding any believer on the grounds they aren't"with us" proves sectarian ground.Indeed, the Lord rebuked his disciples for demanding the man across the river cease doing works in the Lord's name because he wasn't "with us"
I suggest that the charge of "degrading the Fellowship of God 's Son "has been in no more evidance than the missrepresentation of the gospel which the pb's have carried out so ruthlessly for at least 40 years.Indeed the closest parallel to their activeties can be found in scripture- the Pharisees, those who claimed to be representing God, but as scripture so aptly puts it" these people honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me"- and that is the degradation of the fellowship- again- scripture calls it"systemized error" This website has brought together many friends ands acquaintences from long ago- it has provided a venue for those who are distressed and hurting, even those who have become totally disallusioned with what they thought was christianity, and have abandoned their faith-and I trust some day they will come to the realization the Lord hasn't abandoned them.This website has provided the venue to direct people back to the gospel- to look at Christ rather than man.
For many years, the PB leadership has maintained their grip on power by silencing people,by dividing them, by shutting them up.Anybody who questioned them was immediately thrown out, and this website has given those people a voice.Thanks, Dick, for providing it.
Guest: Toad
Guest E-mail: toadhall@fastmail.fm
Date & Comments: February 13, 2003
Wayne Kerr is quite right. All sorts of people bring out their religious hobbyhorses on this web site and try to make them gallop. Most then get quietly wheeled away awaiting another opportunity to take somebody for a ride!
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: February 13, 2003
In a phone call to a ex eb a person who is extremely close to BDH admitted there is another "Aberdeen" about to happen.
Guest: Stirrer
Guest E-mail: robinhood2073@hotmail.com
City, Country: Sydney
Date & Comments: February 13, 2003
It seems most of the information explaining what the various sports are about comes from English fans. It also seems that if you wnat to master (i.e. know how to play) the "round" ball games, soccer, tennis, cricket you should consult the colonials aka Australians.
Guest: bradley mccallum
Guest E-mail: wbradleymccallum@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: February 13, 2003
In response to the dialogue regarding the nature of discussions on this site: to ask for respect of who feel different than ourselves is a pretty basic thing to ask.
It is part of the wonder of the world around us, a dynamic reality of which we are a part. The endless array of differences in persons is something we should not put down and demean, but respect and learn from.
Except I see no need to respect football or anything else so mentally dulling. JUST KIDDING.
Peace and love to all,
WBMcC
Guest: Nigel Herbert
Guest E-mail: NPHerbert@aol.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: February 13, 2003
To the anonymous author of the following message of February 12th:
Guest: A Believer
Date & Comments: February 12, 2003
Anyone got any ideas about any locations of Renton Brethren in the North-East of England? Any help gratefully recieved
If you would care to contact us via e-mail - address - NPHerbert@aol.com - we will be able to point you in the right direction. Additionally our full contact details are listed on the EB Railroad page, and on the 'Names Page'.
With greetings in Christ to all who know us.
Nigel & Rosanne Herbert
Guest: Pete and Helen Silcock
Guest E-mail: psilcock@active-services.org.uk
City, Country: Plymouth UK
Date & Comments: February 13, 2003
We "left" 25 years ago -and have recently had visits - our understaning to date is that there is a program due out soon that is causing the change in policy. Info would be welcome
Pete
Guest: Alan Carvell
Guest E-mail: alancarvell@blueyonder.co.uk]
City, Country: Dudley, England
Date & Comments:
Why why why, did the supporters of football leave it late to respond on this site? It’s now too late!!!!... after all the knocks I was taking from the likes of Mr. Righteous Gibb and Holy Sister Bunting, I started to realise with my love for football that I was on that slippery road to hell!
So I sat down with my dear wife Jill and had a chat, we decided we were sinful football possessed demons and decided to throw away our Birmingham season tickets, and we’re hurriedly trying to locate our Bibles to amend the error of our ways!! What does football do anyway? As I was told by my (in peeb) brother, Pete on my recent visit “You can’t take these things with you” how true he was, how naive of me! How wrong I’ve been!!!! I beg forgiveness!
So no more B’ham City football matches will I attend.
Now I don’t want you all out there saying………..
“Is this anything to do with B’ham City not winning a match since 15th December 2002, or that we’ve lost 6 out of our last 7 games? And lost last Tuesday night to Manchester United 1-0, then lost last Saturday to Chelsea 3-1 both at home”How can Christian people think that way?!!
So please I again ask you to consider me (and poor old Jill) in your prayers to help us rid ourselves of our worldly ways. Why couldn’t we see how sinful we were?
I’m now going to concentrate on the other league table, word count and sweepstake! for the most entries on this site, so may I ask the Buntings, Gibbs, Francis, & Clarkes, to try and make the counting easier for me and keep the entries to aprox.100 words (not as I’m doing here!!) as requested by Dick at the head of the comments column!
On my update Jan 8th reference the league table, Guy Wilson was in the lead, where’s he gone? Come on Guy you’re now way behind.
Thanks again in anticipation for all you’re prayers, Oh and while you’re at it, pray for BIRMINGHAM CITY FC. As I might have a change of heart and get those tickets out the bin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...............................
(Sorry 376 words!!!)
All the best
Alan Carvell
Guest: Lois Bushell (Smith)
Guest E-mail: terryand lois@tinyworld.co.uk
City, Country: Frome, Somerset, England
Date & Comments: February 13, 2003
I left the brethren in 1976 of my own accord with my daughter Jeanette age 7. It is like taking a lamb to the slaughter my Father said, but I found that God was always with me and that a great weight had fallen off my back. My faith has grown even more since. I am now happily married to Terry and live in Frome.
We used to go to meetings in Devizes, Chippenham & Swindon. I have 3 brothers, Andrew,Peter & John, I think they all live in Chippenham now, & 2 sisters, Joy Scott lives in Guildford & Christine Glass lives in London.
I would love to hear from anyone who knew me or any news of my family. Thank you!
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: February 13, 2003
Wonder if the BBC TV item on EBs will find its way to other countries. Understand BDH "has been interviewed" - proudly told to me face-to-face by a current EB.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: February 13, 2003
Gerry (11 February) wonders where the name "soccer" comes from. The answer is it's from the "soc" in "Association Football", and originated in the context of "soccer" and "rugger" (Rugby).
Oliver
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: February 16, 2003
Looking to correspond with anyone from Brethren who have experienced the DEEP things of God, whether in or out.Please email me. Yours in Him. Stephen
Guest: Shirley Brailey (nee Alford)
Guest E-mail: shirleybrailey@freenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury Wiltshire, England
Date & Comments: February 16, 2003
Like to hear from any old friends
Guest: Peter Gower
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Surrey UK
Date & Comments: February 16, 2003
Guest: Chris Jones
Guest E-mail: mangoye@hotmail.com
City, Country: Liverpool, (Formerly London)
Date & Comments: February 17, 2003
I refer to John Weightman's comments on 04/02/03 that the EBs invented a remarkable theology to explain the gap of 18 centuries by calling it "Recovered Truth". However, this pales in comparison with an even more remarkable theology, invented by their precursers, perpetuated by them and other fundamentalist Christians, to explain the 4,500 million years before that. They call it "The Creation".
Guest: TM
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: February 17, 2003
Dick, your theory of Feb 13th is logical and very likely to be proven correct.
Guest: Jill Mytton
City, Country: Beckenham, UK
Date & Comments: February 17, 2003
Re BBC programme
BDH has not, repeat NOT been interviewed though some other 'brothers' have. I dont quite understand why any of them should be proud - what it is they say 'Pride comes before a fall??'
Still no date - a reminder that you will all be told and that I hope some copies will be available to the US and other countries using a different format
Jill
Guest: Victor Congdon
Guest E-mail: jcongdon01@snet.net
City, Country: Portland, CT. USA
Date & Comments: February 17, 2003
I enjoyed the comments by John Weightman and Daniel on February 10.
John says, "…….some people find deep and meaningful theological discussions interesting whilst others prefer to talk about football. There are presumably some equally articulate about both topics."
Daniel comments on the word "Whosoever."
As for me I like both sports and theology. I like the competition in sports. Don't you like to win too? As for liking both sports and theology, which John has suggested possible with a low probability, I ask, "Why not?" Who says we can only have one interest at a time? Let's broaden our horizons; accept the challenges and just maybe we shall learn something new. Learning is like winning.
I like that word "Whosoever." Any person who wishes can take the water of life without cost. It is a free gift. Is it not true that faith is a gift from God? Men do not have the power to believe without receiving this gift of faith. However, men do have the power to resist, also called effectual resistance.
Again, it comes down to winning or losing.
Only by grace,
Victor Congdon
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend, England
Date & Comments: February 18, 2003
To the young peeb couple enjoying a sneaky breakfast in the crowded Tesco cafeteria before doing their shopping on Saturday. Can you tell me: Did it choke you? Did you get struck down by a thunderbolt on the way home? Or, worse still, did you get caught?
You do realise you are in breach of the Commandments - [1]Though shalt not eat with other people. [2]Though shalt not eat what is not cooked with 'holy hands'. [3]Though shalt not go shopping on Saturday.
Beware of the wrath of heaven, but then again maybe they don't take your lot very seriously up there.
Guest: Noname
Date & Comments: February 18, 2003
Well, here I am, finally contributing to this lame weebsite. I am a current "peeb", hopefully never to become an "ex-peeb".. I have been watching this site for about a year, have my own convictions, know there is only one truth, have a judgement of the computer etc.... as in I wouldn't own one, know how it could become an insidious "tool of the devil" etc.etc. But,... I also know the brethren are right in spite of all the controversy, and in spite of things that have been done by the "administation" in recent years... Stop and think about it, there are those among us that have not agreed with the way some (us included) have been treated, we agree that there are things to be reviewed, we should be ashamed with assembly judgements that have been carried out that are wrong, but, the truth is right, it is going through, the assembly is going through, and some of us are willing to put our lives on the line to stand for it. Pray for us, we're praying for you.
Guest: Elizabeth Bunting
Guest E-mail: dbunting@shaw.ca
City, Country: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Date & Comments: February 19, 2003
Dear Sister/Brother Noname:
Thank you for your contribution -- it is very gracious of you to respond to the website. You remind me of a recitation I had to make many years ago. It was entitled "Nameless, Yet Named". It spoke of the many people in scripture who did great things for God who were not named, i.e., the little captive maid who told Namaan where the God of Israel could be found. I trust that the Plymouth Brethren meetings will never discontinue, but I admire you for stating that some of the past judgments were wrong. My sense is that most of the contributors to this website only want the PB meetings to acknowledge that they were in error in their treatment of people at times. If we are Christians we must acknowledge that we are wrong about our treatment of people. We contributors to this website would not expect the PB people to disavow their belief on our Lord Jesus Christ as the Head of the Church which is His body. All I am saying to you is that many of their judgments were wrong and very divisive at the time. We must now go forward in the faith and in the words of the great Apostle Paul state "I press on toward the mark, etc." (I know dear brother or sister, that you know the quotation well.") Thank you for your prayers and I hope you will feel free to contribute to the website as the Spirit gives you the freedom.
Love and many prayers
Only by grace,
Elizabeth Bunting
Guest: Phil Townshend
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Victoria, Canada
Date & Comments: February 19, 2003
To: noname of Feb 18
After reading the transcripts of the Aberdeen meeting and the "Oh depth of riches" meeting with JT Jnr the so-called "elect vessel" and "man of God" can you really and honestly feel that this so called ministry was edifying and magnifying Christ? Does it glorify God in any way?
If you still feel it does, then we can only doubt whether you are truly saved and know Jesus Christ as your Savior. This man is still referred to as "our beloved" but all he could spout is drivel of the worst kind. It is up to you to judge it and leave.
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melburne, Australia
Date & Comments: February 19, 2003
The charm of the peebs!
Dear "Guest Noname" makes his contribution to what it describes as '...this lame weebsite...' as a '...current "peeb", hopefully never to become an "ex-peeb"...'
That's OK by us - stay where you are you seem very qualified to remain there - self righteous, condescending and full of hyporacy - you might even qualify for 'promotion' peeb style :-)
It is interesting that you know that '...there is only one truth...', and '... have a judgement of the computer etc...' - yes we are aware of that also.
You '... also know the brethren are right in spite of all the controversy, and in spite of things that have been done by the "administation" in recent years...'. You also contend that '...the truth is right, it is going through, the assembly is going through, and some of us are willing to put our lives on the line to stand for it...'
Yeah? Right, and God also created the world a few thousand years ago, and the derilect vessel cannot sin, and you're so right and we're so wrong...
Feel better?
Make the most of it mate while you can, because a day is coming ... how is it that it seems such a waste of time even bothering to reply to you?
That's right - you ARE a REAL PEEB :-))
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: February 19, 2003
Re Entry February 18,2003 "No Name"
The problem here is that the current reviewe will be reviewed. If Assembly Judgments that affect Gods creatorial domain have been wrong, you will have to explian your position with the Holy Creator. Maybe you have without knowing it, withdrawen from yourselves. Then what is left?. A sizable charity fund with monies that rival Al-qidia, and other organizations. Are you just part and parcel of the world!
John
Guest: Alistair Deayton
Guest E-mail: Alistair@Deayton.freeserve.co.uk
City, Country: Paisley, Scotland
Date & Comments: February 19, 2003
To "noname" of 18 February.
You claim that the brethren have The Truth.
I understand Truth to be revealed by God solely in His Word, the Bible. Looking at your practices and comparing them to the Bible. You DISOBEY the Lord Jesus, in ignoring the Great Commission. Jesus said GO in Matthew 28 and Acts 1. You sit on your seats and say "That doesn't apply to us" You DESPISE the remainder of the body of Christ, by having nothing to do with other Christians Yoiu DESTROY the familes of those that have left. Time will tell whether recent events inside will stiop that happening, but I doubt it. You DENY believers the freedom they have in Christ by imposing on the a thousand and one non-biblical legalistic rules You virtually DEIFY your leaders, by putting what they say before what Jesus says. You display such arrogance in stating that you and you alone have the truth. Have a look at yourself noname (how do you pronounce that, BTW, does it rhyme with anemone?)
Guest: Bro. Francis
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: February 19, 2003
Several contributors have commented on the defects of the Brethren with emphasis on their cruel and unnatural practices, departure from a scriptural standard, etc. etc.
May I suggest that the basic fatal flaw of all the Darbyite systems is more fundamental than all of these practical defects. It is the core doctrine of J. N. Darby that "separation from evil is God's principle of unity"--an allegation which simply does not hold up.
The teaching about separation in 2 Timothy 2 is not a guide to collective behavior; it is instruction to an individual (Timothy) on personal conduct toward the likes of Hymenaeus and Philetus. Nor does it suggest that those two or any other "unclean vessels" are collectively withdrawn from. On the contrary, in a great household with many vessels all are preserved and some are useful even though they are not clean, such as garbage cans (US language) or dustbins (British language). The notorious verses used by Brethren to withdraw from people *ad nauseum* are used out of context. Read the whole chapter and see.
Darby erred and he was a great Christian teacher only within the perspective of extreme Calvinism, not of mainstream Christianity such as the Anglicanism he turned his back on.
Guest: A
Date & Comments: February 20, 2003
I have been thinking about some in-EBs who were "out" for a time several years ago. In order to be re-admitted to the fold and their families, they had to grovel, bow and scrape and say how sinful they had been, misguided, under the control of Satan, took their eyes off the Lord, Elect Vessel, etc. It now transpires, that they had not been wrong at all, but had been wrongly withdrawn from. In the current climate of "getting right", these wrongful expulsions have been reviewed. Where then, does it place those people who had had to "confess" to being in error, even though they weren't? It seems a rather strange practice to tell a lie and say you're wrong when you're right. They would have been better pulling out there and then and let the scales fall from their eyes while they had the opportunity. No wonder the "current peebs" believe they're right - they don't have the intellect to judge a situation and use their own initiative. Maybe that's why so many EBs have Mushroom Intelligence ("keep them in the dark and feed them ... [manure])
Guest: Mary
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: February 20, 2003
Elisabeth Bunting is not waiting for me, or anyone else to sing her praises, as she is clearly inspired by divine spirituality, which empowered her to give such a deeply moving response to Noname. This was truely made in the spirit of unconditional love and tolerance, as Jesus intended. I admire her greatly.
Guest: Stephen
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: February 20, 2003
Very well said Brother Francis. In the Great House, we find not only vessels to honour, but also to dishonour. God allows BOTH in His House. As Paul says ONLY THE LORD KNOWS THOSE WHO ARE HIS, any seperation is within our own works, NOT OTHERS. Let a man "examine HIMSELF". I may ADD..... HE also placed the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us, and as John the Apostle said not only for our sins " but the whole world." I may add I have had no response from my previous request, I guess I should have asked for a reply from those who have a deep knowledge of Soccer. Ah well, I guess I am learning, albeit slowly.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: February 20, 2003
To the 'no name' 'current peeb'entry.
I cannot comprehend the statement that 'you have a judgement of computers as in you woudn't have one' & 'they can become an insidious tool of the devil' - yet you have been using one for over a year? How long does it take to become 'an insidious tool of the devil'? Has BDH now given a time limit? What exactly is the difference between using one you own and someone else's? Whilst your explanation may wash with the Peebs, I for one do not understand the hypocritical logic and rules the Peebs use (and never did even when I was in, that's why I left). I will pray for you and I sincerely hope that when you pray for us it will be for us to be strong and hold on to our convictions against the harassment and emotional blackmail that has been thrown at us since the recent new rule to get those who have left 'back in' !!
I remain anonymous because of the harassment and emotional blacmail me and my family have endured in the last 2-3months. If you want to respond directly to myself (with your own contact details of course) please contact Mr Wyman who I am sure will forward your response.
Guest: Russ McDonald
Guest E-mail: Russ.mcdonald@gems2.gov.bc.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC Canada
Date & Comments: February 20, 2003
It's Allan Fletcher's 50th birthday this week (Al's a former peeb from Vancouver,Canada).
Happy Birthday Al! If anyone wants to contact Al via e-mail, they can do it thru me. Thanks.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: February 20, 2003
Are the Exclusives dying out?
In the late 1800’s and early 1900’s there were the following number of brethren meetings:
Holland 39
Germany 189
France 146
Switzerland 72
Great Britain 750 (circa)
Brethren were also in 22 other countries with congregations of up to 30 people per meeting.
All of the above is documented and if anyone wants to know where please e-mail me.
Can anyone shed any light on the numbers today?
Guy Wilson
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@celestial.com.au
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: February 20, 2003
Guy from inside his counting house asks:
In the late 1800’s and early 1900’s there were the following number of brethren meetings ... can anyone shed any light on the numbers today?
Peter From in side his dog house says:
If someone DOES get around to counting them, watch out for the dual heads that must [be] in some places due to the enforced interbreeding.
I do think getting people back in has to do with boosting the gene pool. That may be why they are getting the oldies back - not because of their money, but because Viagra works...!
Evil thought? ...makes me smile a while, sp how about you?
If this whole peeb things wasn't so real, it would be a complete crack-up.
Guest: D Johnson
Guest E-mail: davidpjohnson@yahoo.com
City, Country: Texas
Date & Comments: February 21, 2003
Responding to:
Guest: Noname
Date & Comments: February 18, 2003
Well, here I am, finally contributing to this lame weebsite. I am a current "peeb", hopefully never to become an "ex-peeb".. I have been watching this site for about a year, have my own convictions, know there is only one truth, have a judgement of the computer etc..
Well, no wonder you don't want to give your name. First, you'd be "removed" or something like that should the leaders find out you have been using the Computer (of which you don't have one or find evil). Second, believing a computer is so evil, and then obviously using one, is like me saying that pornography is evil, but I just wanted to read the mens magazines for the articles! Get a grip on life. QUESTION (should you be reading this website again) is this: do you really believe that you (meaning the brethren) are the only true Christians? That the only ones who will be in heaven will be Brethren? That all other people in the world who call themselves "Christians" are wrong, false and heading now a path to hell? If so, then face it, you are in what is known as a "cult". Yes, we pray for you, that you wake up and realize you are in a deadend group, a cult and heading to darkness.
Guest: Alistair Deayton
Guest E-mail: Alistair@Deayton.freeserve.co.uk
City, Country: Paisley, Scotland
Date & Comments: February 21, 2003
In reply to Guy Wilson's question about numbers, the numbers of meetings were drastically reduced at the time of FER because of the many divisions, including Glanton at the time. I remember seeing a meeting-room book of about 1890 and being astonished at how many there were, e.g abiut 20 in the Shetland Islands. Post 1970 there was 1 in Holland, 1 in Switzerland, about 6 in West Germany, and less than ten in France.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: George, South Africa
Date & Comments: February 22, 2003
To No Name
Please get your priests to contact Mrs Kitty Dee (Nee Napthine) ex Johannesburg on [contact dwyman@cloudnet.com for the telephone number] as she would like to talk to one of the priests preferably from the North London area.
Guest: Al "Gil" Windhorst
Guest E-mail: 71054.25@compuserve.com
City, Country: Philadelphia, PA (USA)
Date & Comments: February 23, 2003
Dick, I believe I met your parents at Passaic or Westfield. I have been out of the EB cult since the late 70s, and have never looked back. My (nonEB) wife found your excellent site in an attempt to understand why, after 24 years, my parents attempted to contact me. We knew there had to be a catch! Thanks for the information - we'll invite our vistors to meet us at Outback Steakhouse . . . :)
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: February 24, 2003
Peter French's recent words in the Contributions Section have great validity. While he may claim otherwise, I believe he is as bitter as I am about deliberate, callous, emotional manipulation a la ExB style.
Unfortunately, maybe fortunately, I haven't been able to extend a monetary helping hand. Due to lack of education and work experience I can only afford to give of myself.
Betrayal by those we truly care about is the most devastating of "reality" recognitions.
Peter, I appreciate your efforts.
TM
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: February 24, 2003
Does anyone have any information as to whether the ''Review'' includes acknowleging the many persons the PB's took to court, in direct contravention of the scriptural injuction against taking anyone called brother before the courts? When I challenged them on this blatent disreguard for scripture, I was told that if anyone left their meeting, they would not qualify under that scripture, and indeed many court cases were launched against former brethren. I was also told firsthand by a brother of 2 pb's in Vancouver BC going into the hospital room of his dying parent, with a new will disinheriting the son, and leaving the estate to them.The nursing staff offered to testify for him in court, but he declined, saying he would leave that to the Lord. This is just a couple of comments on PB ethics-and I wonder if the ''Review'' is looking at those past wrongs.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: matthew1963@hotmail.com
City, Country: Wellington, New Zealand
Date & Comments: February 24, 2003
email received today from BBC confirming 'Everyman-Exclusive Brethren' due for national broadcast in March. No firm transmission dates available as yet.
New Zealanders and Australians can contact BBC World (email bbcproducts@galleon.co.uk) for further details.
Guest: Peter McDonald
Guest E-mail: petermac32@hotmail.com
City, Country: Sydney Australia
Date & Comments: February 24, 2003
At the outset I wish to say that I am not and have never been a PB. This website came to my attention when I had an all too brief relationship with a lovely ex PB lady who had moved to New South Wales from New Zealand to be with her son and his family. Some of the horror stories she told me I found at first difficult to believe. These and worse have been confirmed by this site.
My reason for writing is to express my surprise at some of the rules and regulations that were used to suppress PB's. These rules made people fearful of being removed from their families, their employment and their friends. Rules governing the length of a person's hair or their choice of clothing or their not being allowed to eat with "worldly" people or being refused contact with parents if they are forced to leave the PB's must eventually mess with a person's mind. I am amazed at just how sane my ex friend was despite all of these things happening to her. Sorry that I have been so "long winded" about this but I have been meaning to write for about a year now. Regards, Peter.
Guest: Anthony Paul
Guest E-mail: available in next few days
City, Country: Sydney
Date & Comments: February 25, 2003
As you can see been out of the brethen for a long time but am quite interested to talk to former brethren as a matter of interest or curisity or just to to catch up to long lost friends
Guest: Verity
Guest E-mail: v.e.de-winton@ncl.ac.uk
City, Country: Newcastle
Date & Comments: February 25, 2003
I was wondering if any of you could help me. I'm currently at university and doing a paper on the Exclusive Brethren and their Millenarian teachings. So I'd be interested in what you were taught was going to occour at the second coming, and how this affected you.
I also have other questions like, why was the PB created? Was it solely because Darby and others didn't like the Anglican clerical orders? And how life affected you all as you progressed towards the 2nd coming.
Any help at all is really greatly recieved.
Thank you
Verity
PS. my email address is v.e.de-winton@ncl.ac.uk
Guest: Graham Smith
Guest E-mail: painterinoils@aol.com
City, Country: Wembury Plymouth Devon UK
Date & Comments: February 25, 2003
Hi
Hope everyone out there is doing fine and a big amen to Peter French @ye shall know them by their fruits' I would be very interested if any ex eb's out there are or were former solicitors, awaiting a challenge for double or quits if you are game I would love to here from you. It is also written that no thief will enter the kingdom of heaven.
Graham
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: expeeb@earthlink.net
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: February 26, 2003
I seek written, first-hand, personal stories regarding the downside of the ExB's "new attitude". Experiences of ex-Peebs who have been recently approached, have appreciated family contact and............................... have then been rebuffed and cast-off again when they said they will not rejoin Peeb fellowship.
I wish to forward such truths to current ExB's who say this is not so, or should not be happening.
Without mentioning names, I have told my Peeb family that people are being approached and then disdained again! They do not believe me - they are incredulous.
Anonymous correspondence is fine. I think us ExPeebs are smart enough to sort wheat from chaff.
Please forward your personal, truthful experiences of such happenings to expeeb@earthlink.net
Thanks.
Guest: Alan Carvell
Guest E-mail: alancarvell@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Dudley UK
Date & Comments: February 26, 2003
At the request of Andrew Coulles (Ex Peeb. B’ham UK) he is trying to contact his cousin Mervyn Roberts last known residing in Worcester UK, if anyone knows his whereabouts can they please contact me so I can forward the information onto him.
Guest: John A. Taylor. D.D.S.
Guest E-mail: Johnataylor@aol.com
City, Country: Glendale, CA USA
Date & Comments: February 26, 2003
The PB movement is part of my family history and I was very happy to learn of this website. Please keep me on a email list as I wish to keep in touch.
Thank you, John
Guest: Michael Gurr
Guest E-mail: MichaelGurr@TheMagicCircle.co.uk
City, Country: Bedford England
Date & Comments: February 26, 2003
Just to update. I have a new e-mail address as I am now a member of The Magic Circle. I have also had meetings with my brother Charles Gurr, I am sorry to say nothing has changed. Good wishes to you all.
Guest: Peter Weightman
Guest E-mail: peter@weightman.dabsol.co.uk
City, Country: Newcastle upon Tyne
Date & Comments: February 27, 2003
To 'Verity' - re your entry 25 February - I left the Exclusive brethren in 1968 when I was 21 so (though by no means an expert!) have some knowledge of their teachings. I may be able to help - would be happy to do so.
Incidentally, by 'Newcastle' do you mean Newcastle upon Tyne? Coincidentally, that's where I live (actually in Killingworth) - not that that's relevant really.
How familiar are you with Victorian Religion I wonder? It helps to provide the context to the Brethren movement. The religious scene changed enormously during the last three-quarters of the nineteenth century and there were many contradictions. Increased religious tolerance and growing indifference. Religious revivalism and fervour. Controversies about new methods of Bible analysis. The perceived conflict of scientific knowledge and Christianity. Alarm that Christianity was no longer 'centre-stage' in the life of the nation. Inevitably these caused reverberations amongst - perhaps helped the development of - 'the Brethren' and their particular doctrines, one of which was of course the strong conviction that 'the Rapture' was imminent.
Please email me with more particular questions if you wish. I'm interested too in what you're studying.
Regards
Peter
Guest: Toad
Guest E-mail: toadhall@fastmail.fm
Date & Comments: March 1, 2003
What is the EB view on the impending war in Iraq? Is it their usual "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, but not to us?"
Guest: Interested
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: March 1, 2003
Does any one know if the head scarf rule has changed? There are very few women seen wearing them now. Where once they were very obvious and distinctive, the only giveaway now is the very long hair with headband or scarf rolled into a narrow headband. A very few much older women can still be seen wearing the scarf but is this just a habit hard to break or is there an age rule?
Guest: Rosalie Hulsing (nee Colledge)
Guest E-mail: hulsing@iprimus.com.au
City, Country: Canberra
Date & Comments: March 1, 2003
I was ex-communicated in Melbourne over 30 years ago, but God has had his hand on me throughout. It has been a long and painful road back to him, but I have a daughter who absolutely loves the Lord, and a husband from the 'world' who has been saved. For anyone who has any doubts about christianity, I would urge them to complete an Alpha course and be reunited with the loving father that the brethren introduced me to, but bypassed in their extreme endeavours to maintain purity. I was recently briefly re-united with my family (I assume as a result of the "review") and am so saddened by their continuing belief that as christians living in separation somehow they are more worthy of the kingdom than all of us christians 'out here'. I was proud of my husband when he pointed out that our heavenly Father has a house with many rooms.
Two scriptures from my childhood have stayed with me throughout my journey, Psalm 23 and John 3:16 so I would encourage all those who feel betrayed to read these simple words. Thank you for the opportunity to bear witness to our Heavenly Father's never ending grace.
Guest: Martyn Ricketts
City, Country: Evesham, Worcestershire UK
Date & Comments: March 1, 2003
Hello to all you visitors to the site. Its sometime since I have posted anything.
I have a South African friend who attends the fellowship I go to (Vale of Evesham Christian Centre) who has asked me if I can track down a family who was in the Plymouth Brethren when his father lived in this country from 1923 to 1945
The family's name is Clark and the father of the family was Alec Clark. The family lived on the outskirts of London.
My friend's father is Trevor Battersby and was born in 1923 in Fullum, London. The Clark family were very good to him and he worked for a company called Caribonun. This company supplied typwriter ribbons and carbon paper and Trevor Battersby went out to South Africa in 1945 to set up the company out there. He married a South African girl. He now lives in Melbourn Austrailia and is 80.
His son Rodney Battersby came to the UK in 2002 for a year and has 7 months left. Rodney is very interested in trying to make contact with the Clark family.
His father has asked him to try and see if any of the Clark family remember him and would very much like to know if Alex Clark is still alive.
If any one has any information of the Clark family or if any one remembers Trevor Battersby please can you contact me by email so I can pass the information of to Rodney.
Many thanks
God bless
Martyn Ricketts
Guest: Martyn Ricketts
City, Country: Evesham, Worcs, UK
Date & Comments: March 1, 2003
To all the football fans out there I can recommend an excellent Chritian football forum called Online FC. Go to www.sicm.org and enter Online FC.
There is plenty of various topics to air your views.
You will also be able to check out what God is doing in various parts of the world as SICM is a missionary organisation involved in supporting pastors mainly in Africa.
It will be something to take your mind of all the negative stuff that keeps appearing on this site. I could'nt belive someone was trying to make out Dick Wyman was evil by numbers!
Dick your doing a grand job...keep it up.
Regards
Martyn Ricketts
Guest: neville mccallum
Guest E-mail: n.p.mccallum@xtra.co.nz
City, Country: Blenheim
Date & Comments: March 2, 2003
Hi Dick, I have just received a message from Australia saying that someone in fellowship there, (who is also in touch with an assembly in the USA that is already silently divided) has withdrawn from BDH in written form. I can not gualify this report. Regards, Neville
Guest: Dave & Pauline Rook
Guest E-mail: pauline_daverook@bigpond.com
City, Country: Kingaroy, Queensland, Australia
Date & Comments: March 2, 2003
This is a great website - We are interested in keeping up to date with what is happening in the Betheren as we have loved ones who are still there and are encumbered by their teachings. We can only hope and pray that one day they will be free and we can be a whole family again.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 2, 2003
Re: Iraq. I was told by the brethren when I went to see my parents a couple of months ago that the Prime Minister of Australia, Mr John Howard, sought out Mr Bruce Hales and went to see him because of his anxiety about what to do over Iraq. It was said that he knew the Hales family well, they were from the same electorate in Sydney, and it's not the first time they have met over national issues. I understand Bruce gave the PM total support. John Howard is now George Bush's closest supporter of the war. My thought at the time was how could they involve themselves in advising a nation to go to war when they profess to uphold the truth of the assembly and be enlightened beings of love?
Guest: Astonished
City, Country: N/A
Date & Comments: March 3, 2003
ref: Iraq
To the person who was told by the brethren that Bruce Hales had seen John Howard. Come now! You don't really believe that the Prime Minister of Australia would seek advice from the peebs do you? They are only a tiny minority of people in the world of Christendom. If John Howard knew of the "exclusives" he also must know of their very narrow-mindedness and inhuman treatment of their own non-eb family members. The brethren were trying to impress you, matey, and they are not always absolutely truthful!
Guest: A believer on the Lord Jesus
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: March 3, 2003
comments: Guest: Toad
Guest E-mail: toadhall@fastmail.fm
Date & Comments: March 1, 2003
What is the EB view on the impending war in Iraq?
The March 1st entry from 'Toad'
Is it their usual "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, but not to us?"
is in my view, a typical uneducated comment. Would 'Toad' take up arms and if so, on what scriptural basis would the decision to do so, be taken?
The reality is, God has not called us to warfare - see 1 Timothy 5:22 and Ephesians 6:12 - 'Toad', you need to get off the earth and enjoy the heavenlies.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
Date & Comments: March 3, 2003
The prime minister of Austrailia consulting with BDH?... Yeah, right,- and he takes Elvis along with him no doubt....
Guest: Astonished
Guest E-mail: amazed@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: England, British Empire now politely called The Commonwealth
Date & Comments: March 3, 2003
He did what????????
Asked Hales!!!!!!!!
That is the biggest load of baloney I have heard in a while.
The sort of questions I personally would ask of Ozzies are on the lines of how to light the barbie, have you got any tinnies and is the surf any good? Not leading questions about world affairs.
And that is no disrespect to any Ozzies but if I was there I wouldn't care. Wish I was in Melbourne for the Grand Prix this weekend. Have a good one. Enjoy the rest of the summer.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend, England
Date & Comments: March 4, 2003
Good old Toad. Your quote of 'Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition, but not to us' is a perfect rendering of the peeb attitude, in a nutshell. Can't see why Believer has got a problem with that, think he must have got the wrong end of the stick somehow - hope he's not passing the ammunition.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: March 4, 2003
If it is true that the Prime Minister consults with Mr Hales on matters of state, then this is a matter of public concern which should attract the critical attention of Australian press and politicians.
If, on the other hand, it is not true, then the deception ought to be exposed.
Somebody (preferably as many Australian visitors to this site as possible) should ask the Prime Minister’s Office (either direct or through an MP) whether it is true.
Guest: Laurie Twinam
Guest E-mail: Laurie@twinam.fsnet.co.uk
City, Country: Sevenoaks, UK
Date & Comments: March 4, 2003
The last forty years of Jim leaders are very much like the forty years of the reign of King Saul related in the Bible (first book of Samuel). During that long period, after a fairly good start, Saul displayed the unpleasant side of his character, particularly in his obsessive jealousy of David, whom he forced into exile. Then, as we read later in that book about David – so completely opposite to Saul in his character – we realise that God has placed there on record the style of leadership that He fully approves – the king after God’s own heart. What a revolution would occur if ‘David’ took over from ‘Saul’ in the Jims!
It would be an excellent idea I think for all of us to study this part of the Bible, and weigh over prayerfully the outstanding merits of great David’s Greater Son to take over the reins of leadership – in all of our lives as well as in the Jims, and one day in the whole world! So I have written a brief paper on this subject (‘Saul or David ?’) which Dick has kindly included under my name in the Names section of the website. Comments welcomed.
Guest: Rod Wilkins
Guest E-mail: wilkins@austarnet.com.au
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: March 4, 2003
Like Astonished and Amazed I too have been consumed with mirth at the concept of our Prime Minister contacting Bruce Hales (who?). I doubt that the EBs would even acknowledge a politician or give him the time of day. When I was in the peebs we were taught to say "Our man is in!" and slam the door when a politician called canvassing for votes - I often wondered what the pollies made of it - probably retreated down the path muttering "another frigging nutter".
But if I do run into Little Johnny with a tinnie in his hand trying to light the barbie at the Grand Prix I will ask if he has had a chat with Brucie lately!
(PS - any chance of the EBs appointing a female leader in Australia, named Sheila, just to complete the picture?)
Guest: Jane
Guest E-mail: circleofstarrs@hotmail.com
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: March 4, 2003
I visit your site from time to time. It remains as always informative and oviously of great support to those who have left the EBs. I myself (non-eb) have found it most interesting and I have been able to apply the what I have read through this site to personal situations in which I come into contact with EBs and ex Ebs, through work/personal realted activites.
If anyone wants to know more about me, they are welcome to email me.....I would dislike it very much if people presumed that I was a scout or any kind of devious person because I am not. Also, I must congratulate all those who have been brave enough to document their stories here. They are very moving and it must take such a huge amount of bravery/honesty to be able to document such personal stories. A great site.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: March 5, 2003
Well, I've been away in the powerhouse of western civilisation (Italy) for the last two and a half weeks and seen some magnificent art and architecture, listened to beautiful music, experienced hospitality from a lovely Italian family, attended part of a catholic mass in the Milan Cathedral, and watched some good footy games (Milan 2 Lazio 2, Inter 0 Barcelona 0, Milan 1 Lokomotive Moscow 0, Inter 3 Piacenza 0, Milan 3 Atalanta 3). And the snow-covered Alps and the lakes below them are one of the most fantastic sights in God's creation.
Reading this site, I gather a few ex EB's have decided to desert God's wonderful world again. They are trying to desert the world God's son died for (no-one can really do so) and by this decision are making themselves irrelevant.
Cheers
Oliver
Guest: <(Suppressed by request)br>
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: March 5, 2003
Have been very interested in this website for some time and really enjoyed reading. However, It is not until now that I feel compelled to make comment.....The Australian Prime Minister asking Bruce Hales for advice !!!!! AS IF !!!!!!!!!!!! Methinks someone is trying to stir things up a bit.
Guest: Graham Smith
City, Country: Plymouth UK
Date & Comments: March 5, 2003
Hi everyone,
Just to let you know that the long awaited Everyman Report is to be shown on the 18th March
Graham
Guest: john
Guest E-mail: filter@fsmail.net
City, Country: hillingdon middx
Date & Comments: March 5, 2003
EB ON TV..........
The BBC programme will be showen on BBC 2 at 11 20PM on Tuesday the 18 of March,
BBC are not 100% sure but it's as much as they know at the moment
I can't wait................
Bye bye and lots of love then.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 5, 2003
No, I'm not trying to stir things up unnecessarily! I was told this about Mr Bruce and the Oz PM by no less than 5 EB's in one room, not just my family, quite proud of the fact that they have influence in this world. There is enough witness to confirm it but I don't want to cause trouble for my family. I put it on this website because I was genuinely aware that it contravenes everything they presume to believe in. The EB's often involve themselves in politics to get their way in legislation and courts etc, especially supporting the conservative parties (eg. John Howard). If you wish to contact me, pls do so via D Wyman.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: March 6, 2003
Re Howard/Hales
I think some common sense should apply on this one. We all know those who are within like to beef up a case to make it look as if they are important, however it is not uncommon for the brethren to have meetings with polititions. This has been common practise since granny was a kid. Especially when they feel that democracy is about to catch up with them. They may be feeling the heat with respect to what is emerging in the UK. Dont worry, John Howard is a man who believes every man and woman deserve demoractic freedom, and this includes the people of Iraq. Maybe there is hope for the happy hopers yet!
John
Guest: Rod Wilkins
Guest E-mail: wilkins@austarnet.com.au
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: March 6, 2003
I see that the BBC is to show the Everyman EB documentary at 11.20pm.
Am I to assume then that the BBC believes the program will only appeal to insomniacs and burglars?
Guest: The accepted definition of “peak time”, in the Television Industry, is 7.00 to 10.30 pm. We are now told that the programme will go out at 11.20 pm – after “Newsnight”. The Brethren must be breathing a collective sigh of relief!
Guest: Faye Jefferson It's hardly prime-time viewing is it? 11-20pm. WHO is going to watch some seriously sad people, covering their backs at every turn and coming up smelling of roses? We know different....Unless of course there is an X.P.B. side shown as well.
Guest: Debbie Cantley It seems a lot of people (like myself) found this website as a result of being contacted. This website has truly changed the way I feel about my family and helped me finally shed the guilt I have carried for some years. Well done, keep up the good work.
Why so much news about Rugby/Football?
Guest: (Suppressed by request) Any chance that someone in the UK would tape the BBC program and send us a copy for a small fee? We in the antipodes want to see it too! I have contacted the ABC and it seems they have no intentions of buying the program to air here.
Guest: Anon
Guest: Peter French Frankly I couldn't care less about whether Little Johnny-I-have-no-mind-of-my-own Howard met with the derilect vessel or not. It would be a meeting of 2 jerks anyway, so they would probably deserve each others' company. Bush is really like a peeb, and being from the branch of the Baptists he is from, there is probably the same degree of self infatuation, self righteousness, and ability to condemn the rest of the world for what they do themselves - hypocrites.
You must also remember that the peebs have no life so IF Johnny Useless met with the derilect vessel it would be the only newsy news they have had since when?
On the other hand, it is about as reliable as the news I got from the Cardinal last week that my Aunt is likely to become the next Pope.
Aren't we lucky to be rid of the motley mob?
Guest: Mark Ghinn I am sure that many will be recording the Everyman program, I certainly will be. If anyone wants a copy I can probably supply one.
Guest: Al Fair point. It means I will have to leave the pub before chucking out time. If I can be bothered. All of 3 people and a passing drovers dog will see it. Might just set the video and watch aonther day.
For the people in the Antipodes who are asking for a copy, what TV standard are you over there? Britain is PAL. States are NTSC. France is SECAM.
As regard Debbie's comment regarding ball games - even though they are not my cup of tea some old friends do have a bit of banter between themselves over it. Thats all there is to it. Nothing more, nothing less. Chill out.
Guest: Cilla
Guest: (Suppressed by request) Ring, ring…
Guest: Curious
Guest: Richard Green
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: March 6, 2003
On 17 January 2003, Nick Gray, the Producer/Director, wrote to Dick Wyman:-
“I can confirm that a fifty minute film on The Exclusive Brethren will be transmitted soon on BBC Television. It will be shown on the BBC’s second channel BBC2 in peak time in the next few weeks.”
Guest E-mail: Fayejefferson@aol.com
City, Country: U.K.
Date & Comments: March 6, 2003
Re: P.B. on TV
Guest E-mail: debbie@eastcombe.com
City, Country: Gloucestershire, UK
Date & Comments: March 6, 2003
I haven't read anything for a while about "the visits". Having gone through a rather traumatic (albeit happy) reunion with my family 2 months ago, I have received a couple of phonecalls since but it all seems to be going very quiet now. I think my family are totally confused and waiting for the next instruction - isn't it tragic. Would love to hear any news about this.
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country:
Date & Comments: Brisbane, Australia
Hi Dick
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: March 7, 2003
Re the Hanky Heads - my understanding is that the younger one's are rebelling because they are self-consious about looking different (geeky?) They are pushing ALL the boundaries and asking questions from us on the outside. Becoming very sneaky and devious to discover a REAL LIFE.
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - ex Warrnambool 1982
Date & Comments: March 7, 2003
Re Bruce Halestorm
Guest E-mail: markghinn@yahoo.com
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: March 7, 2003
To "suppressed" from Brisbane.
Guest E-mail: mail@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: March 7, 2003
Rod says"Am I to assume then that the BBC believes the program will only appeal to insomniacs and burglars?
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Hertfordshire, England.
Date & Comments: March 7, 2003
My son, Andy, died suddenly at school when he was 16. A year previously he wrote of how he found real, lasting peace with God. His story is on our website at www.thepalfreymans.freeserve.co.uk Thank you for your site, and for letting me sign your guestbook.
Guest E-mail: c@tch.fish.net
City, Country: Westminster, UK
Date & Comments: March 7, 2003
I grew up with a friend (not a close friend but we were in the same electorate, London). His name is Tony Blair and he has kindly sent me a transcript of the conversation between John Howard and BDH.
BDH. Hello?
JH. Hello Mr Bruce sir, it’s John.
BDH. Hello John, how goes it?
JH. Bruce, my war cabinet, senior advisors, military strategists, army top brass and all my government ministers are a bit lacking. I need some of your advice.
BDH. How can I help you John?
JH. I’m just seeking your wisdom on Iraq.
BDH. I am very concerned as to the matter, concerning the matter of war.
JH. Yes, so what should I do Mr Bruce? Do you think a military strategy is workable?
BDH. I think that it’s very clear. I think it’s been pointed up and you know we’ve missed it, I think we’ve missed it. It was made clear and we missed it.
JH. Er, yes. But do you think that these weapons of mass destruction exist?
BDH. Well, you know what it is, and we’ve missed it. I’m concerned as to the matter.
JH. OK Mr Bruce, so should we bomb Iraq?
BDH. Well, it’s a concern as to the dear Brethren.
JH. There aren’t any in Iraq, are there?
BDH. Oh? Then we should bomb them then.
JH. Thanks Bruce, I feel much happier now.
BDH. It’s a pleasure.
JH. WHHOOOAAAAH!!….
BDH. Are you OK?
JH. Ooh, that was close, a pig just flew by.
BDH. Stay lucky, dude.
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 7, 2003
Is there a family tree either online or easily accessible on the Hales family? It would be interesting to find out just who is and is not a Hales family member and to also find out which Hales fits where in the family line.
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: March 8, 2003
In case anybody believes that the Brethren have used their close connections at the BBC (Gavyn Davies, Chairman of the Governors and Greg Dyke, Director-General – both “Tony’s Cronies” as well) to have the Everyman programme screened late at night, it is actually always at such hour:-
“This autumn BBC1's Everyman series was whisked in a twinkling of an eye from Sunday to Tuesday evenings, to make way for Panorama. Everyman editor Ruth Pitt insists it is flourishing in its post-10.30 pm slot … .” Monday December 4, 2000 The Guardian
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: London, UK
Guest:
Guest E-mail:
@
City, Country:
Date & Comments:
pmclarke (clarketrim@shaw .ca) on Saturday, March 8, 2003 at 14:39:03
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CityCountry: victoria
comments: That "takeoff" conversation between the politicians and BDH isn't so far off- anybody who has had access to their ministry will find that exchange pretty much true to form. There is little or no teaching or substance, just a collection of banalities. This is in stark contrast to brethren teaching and ministry of years ago [ie, JND's collected writings]- when there were real bible readings and Christ was made the center. However, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised at this- when the scriptures are not upheld, and man, not Christ is the focus- what else could you expect?
I do find it curious, however, for years ago, we always said of any other groups, if we acknowleged them at all, that "they had no teaching"
What goes round, comes round.
Guest: Rod Wilkins
Guest E-mail: wilkins@austarnet.com.au
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: March 8, 2003
Regarding Al's question on TV standards, our video cassettes are marked with a rectangle containing the letters VHS, but under the rectangle it reads PAL SECAM in smaller letters. Does that help?
And it was kind of Tony Blair to release the transcript of the John Howard/BDH consultation, but I am somewhat surprised that BDH didn't remind John not to stray over the border for fear of hitting the "three sisters in Teheran". Having been forced to pray for the "three sisters in Teheran" every Monday night for many years, I would hate to see all that praying wasted in one big blast.
Guest: Robert & Alison Daisley
Guest E-mail: gda@eurobell.com
City, Country: Horsham. England
Date & Comments: March 8, 2003
Guest: Alastair Rayner
Guest E-mail: ajr@alrayner.co.uk
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: March 9, 2003
To help the people who are requesting video copies of Everyman in countries other than the UK I have listed the 3 TV standards used internationally below.
The three world television standards are NTSC, PAL and SECAM.
This is the system used in the UK. PAL and its variants are used in the following countries;
This is the system used in France.
Although both Australia and UK use PAL as the TV standard and VHS as the recording method there is a conflict between the audio/bandwidth group. The UK uses PAL/I and Australia uses PAL/B-G.
Some videos in the UK are switchable on playback(mine is for example) but I would not have thought that this is common place.
Some expatriates in Australia have written to tell me that they have taken a British TV back for this purpose.
I quote one correspondent "I'm not sure what TV we use here in OZ, but our video system is VHS. We brought a TV back from London in 1999 and it only works through our video, so I guess we're not on the same TVprogram as you, but the video should be OK."
This does bear out that the 2 sub groups are incompatible between the 2 continents.
In short if you get a video cassete sent to you go round to a friends who has a UK television on the end of his video.
I trust that this is of some help to all those who have written in the past day since my query and that all of those who want to see the Everyman programme get to see it.
Any queries please email me for TV standards details around the world.
(Info sources- Snell & Willcox/Drake AV)
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: March 9, 2003
Regarding video standards, I've been buying videos from the UK and playing them on a basic Aussie VCR and TV for years, with no problems.
I have also purchased French SECAM videos which perform OK as long as you don't mind them playing in black and white.
UK DVDs are more problematic because of the iniquitous "zoning" system (eg Australia is in the same zone (4) as South America, so that we can all watch Uraguayan DVDs). However, a good dealer will whisper in your ear which DVD players can handle other zones, so in practice I happily watch UK (zone 2) DVDs here in Sydney on my officially "zone 4" equipment.
Cheers
Oliver
Guest: Dave Brewer
Guest E-mail: dave@enex.com.au
City, Country: Sunbury, Vic. Australia
Date & Comments: March 9, 2003
Further to Rod Wilkins comments on March the 8th, last, regarding the 3 Sisters in Teheran.
They left the country, along with an older man, around the late 90's [70's?] about the time the trouble started when the "A-K" ( Cant spell his name) took over there.
The last I saw them was in August 1985, they were living in Los Angeles; had a very happy meal with them. They had left the peebs by that time.
So, yes God did answer your prayers Rod
Guest: Charles Turner
Guest E-mail: charlesandrewturner@hotmail.com
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: March 10, 2003
Before you all get exited about the TV programme, just remember the Iraq/ American/ UK war is scheduled to start the day before, so it might get bumped in favour of a documentary on Saddam Hussain.
Having read books on the great dictators: Stalin, Hitler and Hussain, you may find some uncanny resemblences to how loyalty is achieved. Fear, Finance and family! You know what I mean.
Guest: Dave Johnson
Guest E-mail: davidpjohnson@yahoo.com
City, Country: Texas, USA
Date & Comments: March 10, 2003
Does anyone know if the documentary "Everyman.." will be shown on BBC America? If so, will it be also on 18 March? If not, can someone tell us here in the U.S. when/where it'll be shown? Thanks.
David
Guest: Howard Barber
Guest E-mail: howardbarber@hotmail.com
City, Country: Marshall, MN.
Date & Comments: March 11, 2003
I have been contacted about coming back to the assembly. I have my son that I had not seen in 17 years come to my house. I have two sons not in and my [sons] and I went to see my mother. He had never meet his grandmother as he said it took 18 years for this to happen. Dick contact me if you would like and we can talk further.
Guest: John Logie-Baird
Guest E-mail: video@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: Clydebank
Date & Comments: March 11, 2003
In response to the entry on international TV standards I have had several people from Oz writing in to say that VHS videos sent from the Motherland work fine on their OZ systems. So carry on and order your recordings of next Tuesdays programme in confidence.
Regards John Logie Baird
Guest: Maureen Eagle
Guest E-mail: maligray4@yahoo.ca
City, Country: West Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.
Date & Comments: March 11, 2003
with regard to the "Everyman" programme about E.B's, so eagerly awaited, if you can get someone to mail you out a copy of the video from U.K. it would cost about $20.00 to "convert" it to the Canadian or American system. We have done this many times. I imagine it would be the same for videos going to Australia. The system is different in each country but I'm sure the cost would be about the same. By the way, I did phone BBC World Service, but they didn't seem to know anything about it!
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: March 12, 2003
I have just started teaching a Brethren child in mainstream school and I'm trying to find out more about the Brethren. This site has certainly been an eye opener. Does anyone have any tips on how to work with this child and her family?
Thanks
Guest: Distraught Daughter
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: March 12, 2003
Our family is currently being 'reviewed' by the EBs and as a result we are being 'love-bombed' by relatives who we haven't seen for 20 odd years. Our initial reaction was one of joy - maybe they have seen the light - maybe we can build a realtionship with them in months and years to come.
Our joy has turned into devastation. Our relatives have said sorry, which was accepted, but are now preying on the weak and pulling them back in - another painful separation! Their intentions are to see us back in the assesmbly rather than to heal the wounds even if this means ripping families apart again. Do their consciences not see this?
Being thrown out from the EBs was bad enough but at least we were a family together. Now we are being torn apart again but this time from those we have learnt and needed to depend on for some much - it's desperate.
For any EBs reading - please, please I beg you to think about your actions. By all means heal wounds but please do not instigate or condone any more being created.
Guest: Heather Dutra
Guest E-mail: hrdutra@yahoo.com
City, Country: Seattle, USA
Date & Comments: March 12, 2003
To Mark Kingon who wrote in on Page 6. Your e-mail address is now longer valid. I have some information about one of your brothers.
Please contact me, thanks.
Guest: David Sharples
Guest E-mail: dgs32@ozemail.com.au
City, Country: Mooloolaba, Australia
Date & Comments: March 12, 2003
It seems the visitations going on are especially directed to those withdrawn from during the last thirty years. The Peebs claiming they "may have been harshly treated".
Why did they chop it off at thirty years?
Oops!! I forgot, any further would cover the Aberdeen era.
Guest: Tim Earl
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney (formerly Canberra) Australia
Date & Comments: March 13, 2003
Guest: Sarah Rowlands (nee Oliver)
Guest E-mail: rowlie76@hotmail.com
City, Country: London, England
Date & Comments: March 13, 2003
To Suppressed by Request dated 12 March 2003:
Re teaching one of the brethren's children in a mainstream school - just treat her like any other child and REMEMBER she was born into the Brethren, something she didn't have influence over. It's tough being a peeb in a normal school, I was very loyal to the brethren when I was amongst them and for what, I'm not quite sure. There was always other brethren children bending the rules, even siding with so called 'worldly children' against you yet they were supposed to be on your side. It can be a nightmare.
You have probably read a lot of things on this site, some of which is totally untrue so you may be influenced in certain ways but go on your own instincts, After all, I am assuming you are a teacher so you must be old enough to do this.
I left just over 4 years ago and have been through a HUGE amount of hurt since leaving especially with the loss of my father not that long ago - its tough not being allowed to be at your Dad's funeral and not normal either. I have had a lot of very recent contact and it appears the whole situation is a mess - I even said they may well have another Aberdeen on their hands, the reply was God is very gracious!
Guest: Anna
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Manchester, England
Date & Comments: March 13, 2003
Does anyone remember a Stephen William Bennett who was kicked out of the meeting in (I think) 1976?
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: March 13, 2003
All the latest happenings in the peebs has a hidden motive behind it. They are as corrupt as they have ever been and saying sorry is a ploy to try to melt your convictions on them. They are not worth having anything to do with unless they are geniune about leaving.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: March 13, 2003
From others' recent comments on visits, "apologies" and so on, I think it's now clear the members of this cult are still the same cynical [illegitimate offspring] they always were. Sorry to have to say this about a group that still includes my mother, brother and sister etc (who have been conspicuously silent - maybe they're too honest to join in the deception).
Oliver
Guest: Mark Ghinn
Guest E-mail: markghinn@yahoo.com
City, Country: London, UK.
Date & Comments: March 13, 2003
Just to clarify my March 7th entry. I will be recording the Everyman program (if it runs to schedule) in VHS-PAL. I am not able to convert to any other format.
Mark
Guest: Michael Gurr
Guest E-mail: MichaelGurr@the magiccircle.co.uk
City, Country: Bedford England
Date & Comments: March 14, 2003
It is my understanding that the peebs manage to claim Charitable status in the U.K. I would be pleased to hear from any person who knows this to be true and any other information would also be helpful, i.e The Name they use, Charity No. Address ect. Any information that is relevant to this movement and Charitable status would be helpful. Thank You, All good wishes,
Michael Gurr
Guest: Danielle Rhenius
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Baythorn End, England
Date & Comments: March 14, 2003
I am one of the descendants of this expedition, and I have found this page very helpful, I'd just like to say to the guys who wrote this thanks.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: March 14, 2003
Well, I always wondered what the "official" PB cover-up story was for Aberdeen- and there it is under "What's New". I guess I shouldn't be surprised- the who thing whether or not the PB's accepted Matthew 18- the long accepted assembly prinicples of "that every matter may stand on the word of two witnesses or of three"- and this "official version" is evidence they don't- nor do they accept the principle of not having respect of persons with their judgements.
What the "official version" of Aberdeen does remind me of is another "official" version of events- that of the "explanation" of the resurection-Matthew 28- vs 15 "and this report is current among the Jews until this day" What Paul said comes to mind "this matter wasn't done in a corner", there were a multitude of witnesses, and the scripture stands- no matter who says what. Even though the "official" pb version denies it- they have never challenged the veracity of Aberdeen transcripts in court- as they have in many other matters [yet another case of setting aside scripture which they so blatently ignore]. And to the multitude of PB's sereptitiously reading this website- if the scriptures aren't your guide- what is?
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: March 14, 2003
Well, yes, I guess Dick had to censor my antipodean language; perhaps I can just add that the recent activities remind me of Jesus' condemnation of a group of his contemporaries: "Alas for you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites ! You travel over land and sea to win one convert, and when you have succeeded you make him twice as fit for hell as you are yourselves". Wow !
Perhaps I should have said "hypocrites" rather than "[illegitimate offspring]" (my own censorship this time), but the sheer cynicism of the review or apology exercise and its true nature as a recruiting campaign with attendant rupturing of relationships are now obvious.
Guest: Rod Wilkins
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: March 14, 2003
Dave Brewer comments that God answered my Monday night prayers with regard to the three sisters in Teheran. I beg to differ. In those days I would have been praying that they would be 'encouraged in their stand to uphold the Truth in that dark and Godless corner of the world' - yet within a few years they were apparently out of the country and out of the peebs altogether! Likewise I had to pray every Monday night that Mr Jim might be 'strengthened and encouraged as he moves around the world to minister among us' but within a few months of my final prayer he was dead. So take a tip from me - don't ask me to pray for you! And to Alan Carvell, no, I didn't act on your request to pray for Birmingham City FC so you can't blame that one on me!
Guest: Iris Taylor [Hansen]
City, Country: Shepparton, Australia
Date & Comments: March 16, 2003
Regarding the recent letters published about an alleged conversation between prime minister John Howard and Bruce Hales, reminded me of the dismissal of prime minister Gough Whitlam in the seventies when we were told that a brethren brother had phoned Sir John Kerr [ governor general ] and told him to 'sack the b-----d'. When this event actually occurred the brethren took the credit. [so nothing has really changed over the last thirty or so years, has it ?]
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: March 15, 2003
Bits of trivia: Do you remember when we all were supposed to have the "official" picture of JT.jr on the mantlepiece in the front room? [not sure what you were supposed to do if you didn't have a mantlepiece- maybe make one so you had the "proper" place of honour] I remember we didn't have one [by choice] and were "given"one [and later checked up on to see it was in it's rightful place]
My sister was visiting one home, and turned the picture around-which brought down wrath upon her head "in this house we ADORE Mr Taylor" Also I remember when Fred Wragge didn't order some ministry- he was "questioned" about his reasons why not.....[he had the old series and didn't need it]
And another-it was supposed to be the "in thing" do die on a Sunday, preferably during the time of the BB. However, when JTjr died [not on a Sunday] we had an old lady [a bit of a simple soul, but maybe not as simple as we thought] who when told about Jt.jr's death asked "and did he die on Sunday?"
Guest: Jack Daniels
Guest E-mail: abracadabra@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country:
Date & Comments: March 15, 2003
Congratulations to Michael Gurr on attaining Magic Circle status. However I would have thought that a sprinkling of Sooty and Sweeps "Oofle Dust" and a few well chosen words for a simple spell would have given you the required information that you seek. Does "Hubble bubble, toil and touble, fire burn and cauldron bubble" not work anymore? Am I out of touch?
No doubt for this flippancy I will be turned into a 10 foot high rabbit next time you get your magic kit out.
In all serious I hope you find out the required info as I am interested as well. They also get away without paying rates on their meetings.
Guest: Graham Smith
City, Country: Plymouth Devon UK
Date & Comments: March 16, 2003
Hi one and all,
I wonder if any of the ex London 60's crowd can recall an assembly meeting at Park Street when my three elder brothers were withdrawn from, Timothy, David and Ian. Neither of them had ever broken bread, and had no interest at all in the meetings. They were ushered into a seating area that had been railed off with thick Royal Blue Braided rope. Then the inquisition began, Timothy's reply, I just cannot recall, David's went something like Ok dad, yeah dad! I just don't dig this stuff dad! And Ian's was I am not interested and have nothing to say.
One by one, they were withdrawn from and had to do the walk through a crowded house of self-righteous whited sepulchures.
I would be interested to find out the name of the inquisitor.
Graham
Guest: Nick Twomey
Guest E-mail: nicktwomey@ukonline.co.uk
City, Country: Nottingham UK
Date & Comments: March 16, 2003
I am aware of several EB Meeting Rooms in the Nottingham UK area and would like to know what group(s) they belong to and if they relate to each other. There is one in Dunkirk and another in Beeston and I have heard of another in Gedling/Netherfield. Have they sub-divided from a common root? and are there other groups around Nottingham?. I wonder, is there one large extended family, because there certainly seem to be threads of similarity when I see groups of EB locally.
Can anyone tell me how many assemblies there are in the UK and the total number in fellowship. Are they growing or declining and by what rate. Needless to say, I have found it difficult to ask these questions face to face. My interest is harmless curiosity, having spent my early years with Open Brethren in Scotland where we referred to our exclusive cousins at ‘the Tights’.
As for the BBC documentary – don’t hold your breath. I fear it will be more frustrating that enlightening, more dramatic than edifying. It if features those who are ‘in’, how will they ever know what they look like on telly – or will someone else watch it for them and take still photos?.
What a good website – Football and Theology, the heart rendering and the trivial all mixed together
- Praise God!.
Guest: Charles Barrett
Guest E-mail: cande.charles@virgin.net
City, Country: Isle of Wight
Date & Comments: March 16, 2003
Ken and Margery Woodcock (used to be local in Barnet, North London, for many years) have heard a report that Margery's brother-in-law, Mr. Hutchins from Timperley, Manchester, has passed away. He was with the Hales brethren. As they have no way of verifying this rumour they would be most grateful if anyone who might know could confirm it or not, as the case may be.
Guest: Alan Marston
Guest E-mail: matthew1963@hotmail.com
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: March 16, 2003
In reply to Nick Twomey..in UK there are 15,000 Exclusive Brethren located in 98 towns and cities. In New Zealand around 2,000 EBs.
Guest: Bevan Lawry
Guest E-mail: lawryb@esc.net.au
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 17, 2003
Recently visited N.Z. where there are many reports of those previously excommunicated being visited, apologised to for past treatment, and exhorted to rejoin the fellowship (quite persistent in some cases). Some reports also of a few members returning - extenuating needs for some of these. Also, many are moving to the smaller towns to reduce the numbers in the larger cities.
Guest: Joan Ramsey
Guest E-mail: jr@joanramsey.net
City, Country: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Date & Comments: March 17, 2003
Seeking news of my second cousin JESSIE CREE HILL. She was born in Glasgow in 1918 to James Hill, ship's joiner, and Annie Hill nee Marshall. The Hill family belonged to the Exclusive Brethren and lived in Thornwood Avenue, Partick. We have had no contact since the 1950's.
Guest: David Green
Guest E-mail: david@green4.fam.aust.com
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: March 17, 2003
The mention of the 'three sisters in Teheran' brought back fun memories of the prayer meeting. The young one seemed to be the ones who always prayed for 'Mr. Vincent Dharmaraj and the dear brethren in India' and also 'Mr Colgin and the dear bretheren in Hilo'. We made the prayer meeting fun by all the young fellows sitting in a row and praying consecutively. Or plotting before hand and wearing our Dad's oldest, widest and ugliest tie when thin ties were in.
While you are very glad to be free from it, you can look back and laugh.
Guest: BB
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 17, 2003
Yes there are some people going back, but notice it is only people that are either in need of medical care or in need of money! In my opinion they are choosing the easy way out.
Guest: heidi
Guest E-mail: hilan@absamail.co.za
Date & Comments: March 17, 2003
Hi there everyone
My name is Heidi and I am urgently looking for very good friends of ours. We made friends with this lovely couple in 1998 and in November 2000 they emigrated to Sheffield in England for good.
Apparently their "group" of brethren decided that it was too dangerous and politically unstable to stay in South Africa and the whole group left for England and some emigrated to Australia. The name of the couple is Kim and Aiden Morren, they are in their early 30's and have three beautiful daughters, Terry (approx 7/8 yrs), Donna (approx 5/6 yrs) and Ross (2/3 yrs). Aiden's father Ron Morren is an Architect and probably has an architectural practice - which he also had in South Africa. Ron only employed Brethren in his practice and employed all his children - Aiden, another brother and two sisters. PLEASE can someone help me - I can't believe that we can never ever contact these lovely people again - life is just too short to lose touch with people who touched your life!
Thanks HEIDI
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: March 17, 2003
I was wondering if any others have had a similar experience to mine.
I was brought up in the so called "open" Brethren in the North of Scotland although I have some relatives in the "Exclusives"
In my experience (although this may just be the area that I grew up in and the Gospel Halls there) there was often very little difference between the "Exclusives" and the "Open" Brethren. Similar dogma but just watered down a bit.
e.g. - long hair for women, wearing hats, no make up, earrings, trousers etc.
I was certainly not encourages to mix with non-Brethren people, in fact there was almost a fear of becoming too involved with people from school and then getting into trouble if they invited you home or to a party.
There was a pressure to join at 12 and it was shameful on parents if their children did not.
There were lots of jokes about not eating at the same table as people who were members but this didn't actually happen.
Other denominations were looked on as "dead" except perhaps Baptist who were almost ok, despite the fact they practiced "One man ministry". Although in many assemblies there always seemed to be one, strong and dogmatic "brother" who ruled the roost more so than any minister would.
If bad things happened to you it was because God was punishing you for something.
I could go on but I don't want to make this message any longer!
I would be interested to hear any responses to this.
Thanks for a great site.
Best wishes
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
Date & Comments: March 17, 2003
The "three sisters from Teheran" are quite elderly now, live in Los Angeles, and fellowsip with a small group of christians there. They are very pious and Godly ladies. I have the greatest respect for christians who live in Muslim countries- in many cases they are subjected to imprisonment, beatings and even death. Those people pay for their faith.
Guest: Jenny Hunt nee Hilton
Guest E-mail: maharg@iclway.co.uk
City, Country: Nottinghamshire, England
Date & Comments: March 17, 2003
I was with the brethren up until the age of about ten or eleven, meetings were held in the Doncaster area. I would be interested to hear about people similar to me and how it has affected their lives. I'm now 38 and it still affects my life in various ways. One big thing for me as a child was growing up with no t.v or radio, it made me feel like an outsider, which I suppose I was.
Guest: SHOCKED
Date & Comments: March 18, 2003
Interesting reading indeed. From an "outside" neutral point of view, it appears that the majority of the contributions on this site, are biased and twisted. I have been out for many years and only discovered this site recently. Those of you "hurt" by the brethren are bitter and twisted. Get on with your new lives and fight for a real cause eg against crime or drug abuse. Not against christians. Can anyone give me statistics on the brethrens divorce rate?? Or the pregnancy before marriage rate? Or the drug abuse rate? Or what about the percentage of businesses which fail to succeed??
These figures might show that they are worth something. But being a biased site, I guess you may conveniently fail to post this entry.
Guest: Jim Kitson
Guest E-mail: macceit@hotmail.com
City, Country: Newry, Northern Ireland
Date & Comments: March 18, 2003
For so called "christians" the exclusive brethren seem to have missed some of the most central teachings of Jesus Christ, love thy neighbour, now how do they espouse that by refusing to interact with "the world" They also singularly fail to turn the other cheek when they completely ostracise former members. Getting to my point, as a lawyer I am curious as to what experience former members have had in attempting to gain contact with their children, given the paramountcy princpal in the Childrens Act (and order) and the courts interpretation of what "is best" for the children in these instances.
Guest: Mike James
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: London, England
Date & Comments: March 18, 2003
I watched the BBC program on TV tonight and congratulate you for your actions in supporting people and putting this site together.
Keep up the good work
Guest: Gregory Morris
Guest E-mail: deiniolgpm@btinternet.com
City, Country: WALES
Date & Comments: March 18, 2003
Oh why oh why does the BBC paint such a lurid picture of the Brethren. It all seemed so grotesquely irreligious as Lady Bracknell would say.
I thought it was a good programme. Garth Christie and the others were splendid I thought. At least they are not sneering and sophisticated as we have all become. They may not have been telling the whole truth but their attitude was refreshing.
The BBC site on the EBs is peddling all the old chestnuts. Didn't they have a copy of Roy Coads book which would have prevented them from rolling out some of the worst howlers?
Still can't complain. Thank heavens my parents left it in 1970
Greg
Guest: Silvia Zedda
Guest E-mail: jasilv@btopenworld.com
City, Country: Whitby, England
Date & Comments: March 18, 2003
Guest: Dorothy Moffitt
Guest E-mail: dorothy@djdistribution.fsnet.co.uk
City, Country: Northern Ireland
Date & Comments: March 18, 2003
My best mate is Ex-Brethern -- so glad she was brave enough to excape --- She is so much part of lives now that we dont know what we would do with out her --so this is a tribute to her -- sometime I might come back her a tell u how we meet -- suffice to say -- I am very glad we did!!!!!
Guest: Debbie Cantley
Guest E-mail: debbie@eastcombe.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: March 18, 2003
Well its 2am and I am too awake to get to bed. What a reminder that documentary was!
It really took me back. I think what really made me shudder was the sight of all those headscarves and the fat unfit bodies. Potentially normal intelligent people with their lights turned off. I found the documentary fascinating, and not over dramatised as i had expected it may have been.
It was just a shame, the BBC didn't show the success that most people who left have made of their lives. You have to have a great deal of strength to leave and stay out, which must make most of us fairly interesting people, and some of us successful!
Guest: Jeremy THOMAS
Guest E-mail: JemHT@yahoo.com
City, Country: Shropshire
Date & Comments: March 18, 2003
Left the Exclusives in Ealing, London with 80% of the family in 1966 aged 16. Surname now HOWELL-THOMAS.
Guest: Margaret Meek
Guest E-mail: mameek@ccn.go-free.co.uk
City, Country: Grendon Underwood. Buckinghamshire. England
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Guest: Martin Long
Guest E-mail: longmartinuk@hotmail.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Dear Sir,
Are you the same Dick WYMAN that appeared on the BBC UK programme EVERYMAN 18/03/04? You vilified the Brethren calling them 'demonic and evil'. You should be ashamed of yourself, sir. I am not Brethren but I am a Christian. We have a brethren community here where I live in the UK. I see them as good people following a belief in God that they hold most precious and above all else, including family. The BBC programme wheeled out three disgruntled teenagers and you and attempted to show the Brethren as some wicked cult that matter of factly split families and caused great heartache and hardship to many of their followers. For me, watching as an 'outsider', the only person that came over as wicked was you Mr WYMAN.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Just two days after its “Everyman – The Exclusive Brethren”, comes BBC2’s “Horizon” (its “flagship monthly science programme ), “God On The Brain” (Thursday 20 March 9:00 pm - 9:50pm, which could explain how anybody could hold such unbelievable beliefs.
Guest: John
Guest E-mail: zippyhead3@aol.com
City, Country: Worthing, England
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
I'm confused by a program I watched last night. It was an insight into the Brethren and I was surprised by the objective stance the show took.
It had three members justifying, explaining and recalling information about the Brethren.
( I was instantly shocked at how appalling their use of the English language was - They explained how university is an evil bad thing and how people from the cult have regretted having gone - I'd rather be EVIL than have no knowledge or ability to put a sentence together. )
Why is it that people can't mix in the evil world but have the strength to ignore evil influences? SURELY Mother Teresa wasn't evil!!!!!!
I found this programme disgraceful and despite the obvious word of God they seem to follow, it contradicts my religion (technically I'm C of E) even though they are founded by the same book. They are bitter and perhaps jealous that they are stuck in a way of life that isn't enjoyable. They seem to take some kind of smug pleasure in leading this alternate existence. I'm appalled also that they don't know me but label me as evil just because I mix with a lot of evil people.
Can someone please explain why I hold such resent for the Brethren? Obviously they went into detail about the hurt and pain caused by the Brethren and how suicides have occurred from Brethren's treatment toward them but I cannot believe that God would want people to live a life like this.
If I said a prayer, would God not be listening just because I'm not a stupid, uneducated, monosyllabic recluse?
Guest: Darren Hughes
Guest E-mail: Darren.Hughes@Dyson.com
City, Country: Former Calne, Wiltshire
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
I have to say that the BBC programme last night was a real anti climax and not really worth staying up for.
I don't think it portrayed the brethren as they really are and certainly didn't portray the suffering that people that have left have been through.
Guest: Nick
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Glasgow UK
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Last night I watched a BBC documentary called Everyman. This week it was about EB. I had never heard of them before and was horrified that something like this is able to go on in the twenty first century. I feel that if the EB had their way we would all be Stagnant. Don't they realise that the purpose of man is to evolve to stride fowards or else we would all still be swinging from trees? As for what they are doing to families its horendous. I think it's about time that governments sat up and took notice at what is happening ( instead of going to war with Iraq ). For those who are still in it I feel sorry for you. For those who have got out all power to you for your convictions. I admire you
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
To Martin Long
I was surprised to read this message from you - do you think the brethren are christian then? As a point of accuracy - none of the three are in fact teenagers but are in their twenties. Another fact is that the exclusive brethren HAVE split up families and have caused great hardship and pain to large numbers of people. The programme was not about your group of brethren but about a group of so called christians who use mind control techniques to control their members. Dick Wyman may call that demonic and evil - you disagree which you are perfectly entitled to do. (By the way my own brother (still in the EBs) calls me demonic and evil saying I am doing the devil's work. There seems to be a parallel here!) You seem to be saying the same about a man who have given huge amounts of his time and energy to construct this site which has been of enormous benefit to a lot of people.
I say - thank you Dick and keep up the time consuming very valuable work.
Guest: Colin Reeves
Guest E-mail: C.Reeves@coventry.ac.uk
City, Country: Rugby, UK
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
I watched ‘Everyman’ last night out of curiosity. My family left EB-ism in 1970,
and hadn’t given it a thought for years until my father recently had a letter
from his brother (still in). Happily our experiences on leaving were not
harrowing at all - unlike the sad tales on the TV. But then we had no illusions,
and relied on Christ alone for salvation. (That's why we got into trouble in the
first place.) We were just relieved and overjoyed that we didn’t have to pretend
any longer that God was like the brethren said. It’s tragic that so many EBs
don't really know our loving and gracious Father. We should pray for them.
Guest: James Gross
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Oxfordshire, UK
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Having watched last night's BBC documentary on the Brethren, I was moved to almost constant prayer for the poor families torn apart by this sect. I am an Orthodox Christian and whilst I have knowedge of family difficulties experienced through putting God above Father or Mother, the situations that many of the poor individuals have subsequently found themselves in after having left seemed simply abominable. I'm sure that the brethren would cite the Devil as the reasons behind those having left then falling in to other sins of adultery etc, and it is not God that drives us to these transgressions. However I find it impossible (I admit to not knowing anything of the brethren bar what I saw on TV yesterday) to see that the Grace of God is with these people.
Where have they preserved the traditions of the early Church? They certainly cannot claim Apostolic Succession, what sacraments do they have? Do they have the correct Patristic understanding of scripture and recognise the Canons of the Apostles? I doubt it. I don't even know if they recognise Jesus Christ as God, borne of the Virgin Mary?
I shall continue to pray for the revelation of these people that they might seek to unite with the Truth of God, undivided and preserved since Pentacost.
In Christ
JG
Guest: Philip Margetts
Guest E-mail: philip1228@yahoo.com
City, Country: Gloucestershire UK
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Yes I watched last night on BBC2.
There is a question.. or maybe its just me? Why do the people being interviewed that have left have earrings, tattoos, swear, smoke, get interviewed in a Pub ?? is this normal ?
I left in mid 70’s of my own free will, I do not smoke or drink, I have always had short hair have never found the need to swear, the only contact I have with other ex PBs that left about the same time or on the 70 Jim Taylor V Madeline Keer split, non of them smoke, have long hair, some have the odd drink, so is this not normal ??
On another point, my Father has been in contact a few time, and said sorry, but it was more of an excuses to clear his conscience I feel
Guest: Bill, Perth
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
With all due respect; you know not what ye speak.
Guest: Suzanne R. Howell-Gleason
Guest E-mail: suzgleason@aol.com
City, Country: Seattle, WA USA
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Did anyone record this program? Please let me know how I could obtain a copy. BBC has decided not to put it on video at this time.
thanks!!
Guest: Charles Turner
Guest E-mail: charlesandrewturner@hotmail.com
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Many Ex EB's were surprised at last nights TV documentary. It showed ex PB 'sinners' who had commited adultery, taken drugs, been in prison and had children by different men. Not what we all expected. .....admit it! Dirty washing in public or what!
So if you feel agrieved that the programme did not in any way reflect the sinister side of the EB's. Or if you were callously discarded by the EB's for no reason at all. Think for a minute on these points:
So rather than feel hard done by. Feel very, very sorry for the 'priestly echelons of the Exclusive brethren. They will be judged for what they have done!
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: U.K.
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
In reply to Martin Longs comments... unless you have lived the life of the brethren I would suggest Sir, you know absaloutely nothing and you do not qualify to pass comment after watching a very disappointing programme.
Your attack on Dick Wyman was quite uncalled for and again, if you have no connection with the brethren, you cannot know what a life-line this web-site has been to many X.P.B's. In my view the most interesting part of the programme was with Dick Wyman at his house.
Guest: Andrea Howden
Guest E-mail: drea.den@orange.net
City, Country: Somerset, UK
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
I watched Everyman last night and thought it was a fairly accurate portrayal of the bumbling idiots that the EB's are! I left them nine years ago along with my now ex-husband and five children. The best thing they ever did to us was to 'withdraw' from us! Oh happy day! Freedom at last! Guy - I remeber Bob Fleck - I grew up in Bromley and he liked his wine, women and song!!
Hi Gerard, I've found your playground at last! Love to you and Monica and family.
Guest: Dave Johnson
Guest E-mail: davidpjohnson@yahoo.com
City, Country: Texas, USA
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
In response to:
"Are you the same Dick WYMAN that appeared on the BBC UK programme EVERYMAN 18/03/04? You vilified the Brethren calling them 'demonic and evil'. You should be ashamed of yourself, sir...."
This individual claims they are not EB, but Christian. First, since you are not EB, you have not earthly idea what it's like to be one. Second, sure, EBs look good on the outside with all their family values, following God, etc, but, again, if you haven't been part of them, you really don't know the truth. Third, since everything that's been posted on this website regarding the Brethren is true, how can anyone claim to be a Christian and then say that the EBs are okay, doing God work, etc.?
Guest: David Johnson
Guest E-mail: davidpjohnson@yahoo.com
City, Country: Texas, USA
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Now that the documentary "Everyman" has been released on BBC, can someone please email me and let me know where I can get a copy. I'm in USA. Really would like to see it. Thanks.
Guest: Philip Coleman
Guest E-mail: philandjan.coleman@btinternet.com
City, Country: Bognor Regis, UK
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Guest: Peter
Guest E-mail: peter@wheretofindamap.fsworld.co.uk
City, Country: Scotland
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
I watched the Everyman programme last night and wondered, do all young people who leave the Taylorites want to go so far from their parents' ideals as came across in the programme? I come from a fairly strict and isolated Christian background myself (not primarily Brethren) but I tend to just question certain specific things while I still value a lot of other things. Perhaps this is partly because the distinctives of my background relate more to our family's own decisions than to any particular denomination. Also I was homeschooled (20 years ago when such things were rare). I'm finding it quite difficult to find Christian girls (ok, yes, at my age I need to say, single women!) who think like I do though!
Guest: Cult Counseling America - www.MyOwnMind.com
Guest E-mail: office@myownmind.com
City, Country: Pennsylvania, USA
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
Great Site. Keep up the good work.
Visit www.MyOwnMind.com for more information on the Exclusive Brethren, other cults and general information on mind-control. It is a helpful site and you can share your personal story there by submitting it to be posted and shared with others, warning people about the potential pitfalls of the E.B.
Visit www.MyOwnMind.com
Enjoy.
Guest: Dave Heap
Guest E-mail: dheap@metz.une.edu.au
City, Country: Armidale, NSW Australia
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
To 'SHOCKED':
I left the Exclusive Brethren 27 years ago, have been a Christian for 27 years, involved in a bible-believing church for 27 years, happily married for 25 years & made a life free from the guilt sffered by many ex EBs. Now some realities from my life: My three teenage daughters have never known their grandparents, who lived in the same town as us, as the EBs forbid them contact with us. My father is now dead, having never had a relationship with his grandchildren or daughter-in-law. The last time I saw my sister was a chance meeting at a picnic spot. I walked over to speak to my parents & was threatened with a carving kife by my sister, who screamed that she was not my sister & that they were not my parents! I could relate many stories about the abuse my parents suffered at the hands of EB elders, the public drunkenness, leader deification, etc., but I won't Have the brethren tried to hurt me - YES. Am I bitter & twisted - NO.
To 'SHOCKED' & 'Martin Long' - the Taylorite Exclusive Brethren are not what they appear to be. On the surface they appear to be a pious Christian sect. The reality is far different. By all accepted measures they fall into the definition of a cult, not a denomination or sect. Those who have been inside know the reality. Those on the ouside see only what the EBs want them to see. Perhaps you'd like to download an audio copy of the Aberdeen tapes & see if this sort of beahaviour tallies with a good Christian group.
Guest: no name given
Date & Comments: March 19, 2003
I HAVE NEVER READ SUCH A TWISTED MESS OF INFORMATION FROM WHAT APPEARS TO DECEMINATE FROM A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE UNQUESTIONABLY BECOME SO DISTORTED IN THEIR OUTLOOK THAT THEY CAN STOOP TO ATTACK THEIR PREVIOUSLY LOVED BELIEF AND FAITH, FAMILY, FRIENDS ETC.
FROM WHAT I CAN SEE THESE BRETHREN THAT ARE SO RIDICULED BY THE ENTRIES THAT I HAVE READ DON'T SHOW ANY SIGNS OF RETALIATION WHATSOEVER!! FROM MY LITTLE UNDERSTANDING THIS IS INDEED CHRISTLIKE.
IT WOULD ALSO SEEM TO ME THAT THE 'POSITION ' THAT HAS BEEN SUBJECT TO SUCH AN EXTRAORDINARY LEVEL OF CONDEMNATION AND BITTERNESS - MUST BE RIGHT!!
NORMALLY WHEN YOU DON'T (IN YOUR INNER HEART) BELIEVE SOMETHING IS RIGHT YOU MOVE ON AND LEAVE IT ALONE/BEHIND! IS THIS NOT SO?
WHAT I READ HAS ALL THE HALMARKS OF PEOPLE WHO UNDERNEATH KNOW DEEP DOWN THAT WHAT THEY HAVE LEFT (RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY - THATS NOT WHAT I'M REFERRING TO HERE) IS THE PLACE THEY SHOULD BE, OTHERWISE WHY WOULD THEY ATTACK IT SO VEHAMENTLY AND AGRESSIVELY??!!
I SUGGEST (FOR WHAT ITS WORTH) THAT YOU NEED TO EITHER PUT YOUR PRIDE IN YOUR POCKET AND GET RECONCILED OR MOVE ON AND FORGET THE PAST!
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Adelaide, South Australia
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
To SHOCKED March 18th,
There are divorces and would be more but for the fear of losing ones entire family not just a partner and there are pregnancies before marriage but these are limited for the same reason as above. There is drug and alcohol abuse, sexual and other physical and psychological abuse but these matters are handled by the 'priests' and very conveniently kept extremely quiet or even swept under the carpet and ignored. There are people in there who would be in prison if they were 'normal' people. Businesses succeed but how - I know first hand that some of thier business dealings are made in a less than Christian manner. I do not often respond to these messages as everyone is entitled to their own opinion but this time maybe you should have got your story straight before critisizing someones else's. Christianity is meant to be a life lived with a love of God and his principles not life lived in fear of one's peers!
Guest: Deane Butcher
Guest E-mail: kymwilliams @ chariot.net.au
City, Country: Adelaide, Australia
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
In reply to no names entry on March 19th 2003
You're making a huge understatement when you say "from my little understanding" as you evidently have absolutely no idea. Most people who belong to the E.b.'s did'nt choose to belong to such a cult but were born into it, and in my case (and, I suspect, many others) never believed or had faith in the regime, or its dogma, right from the start. Also you have the wierd view that the more something is attacked the more likely it is to be right. Thirdly, not everyone can turn a blind eye when they see evil being perpetrated, especially when it has been the cause of ongoing trauma. We do get on with our lives but that doesn't mean we forget.
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays
City, Country: Berwick upon Tweed
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
A couple of observations from the Everyman film.
Regards
John
Guest: Curious
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
I was rather amused by the entry of March 19, 2003 by no name given in his/her rather twisted rhetoric. Perhaps No Name Given would care to let us in on the new word for the English language .. DECEMINATE.. where did you come up with this word and in what dictionary did you find it. Perhaps you meant to say decimate?.. which means to destroy or perhaps emanate which means to come from. Is this Brethren speak? Also perhaps many people are not aware but among members of the online communities (internet communities) it is considered extremely rude to type in uppercase or capital letters. It inidicates shouting, which, if going by the content of the letter is obvious that this poor person needed to shout to be heard in the first place. All in all it gave me a good chuckle as I realised that no matter who purports to trust and believe the EB's are Christian, they feel it necessary to be abusive to get their point across. This my friend is not a Christian thing to do, perhaps you should remember to "Put Brain in gear before engaging tongue".
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
I notice someone was drawing a very long Bow by calling Dick Wyman: wicked and evil. Those sort of arrows in Australia are called Boomerangs. I am not drawing a LONG bow when I say, "not even animals treat their offspring as cruelly as Exclusive Brethre do. Never has the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, ever been so mocked, as by Exclusive Brethren. They are crucifying Jesus over and over again in their assembly meetings, see Zech.13v6; John1v11; John19v6. Are the so-called elect to-day, any better than Elect Jesus was born into? Are not their actions total proof they are still living under the Old Covenant?
Guest: Candace Merriweather
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
To the morons who watched one BBC show and dare draw ignorant conclusions about the effects of the EB's and suggest we get a life....
Many of us have successful lives despite emotional and mental abuse. Most of us, however, cannot forget the pain and have endured decades of EB-enforced separation from family members we love and want to be close to.
As for those who think we're a bunch of skinhead bums, evil-doers, etc. first, be true to your Christianity, quit being snobbish and "judge not". Then, consider those who are now middle-aged, some seniors, many nearing senior citizen status who have been denied family contact because of ridiculous "EB matters" or religious politics of the 60's, 70's and on.
My only "crime", forty-odd years-ago was using my brain and having the courage not to join the mindless who kowtow to man-made "Elect Vessels".
Don't criticize until you have walked in the shoes of the EB shunned!
It's a hard row to hoe.
Guest: John Gibbs
Guest E-mail: John.gibbs@halliburton.com
City, Country: Johannesburg RSA
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
I have just received the Everyman video from England. Anybody in South Africa who may be interested in viewing it can contact me on 083-281-7264.
I will be sending a copy to Rita Napier in Cape Town too so if it’s more convenient you could contact her. On another matter Dick, I think you should have a Wooden Spoon Award for stirrers like SHOCKED and NO-NAME. They certainly act as a red rag to a bull for some people don’t they?
Guest: Rachel Blaylock
City, Country: Harrogate, North Yorks UK
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
Guest: Paul Livesey
Guest E-mail: paulivesey@hotmail.com
City, Country: Poulton Le Fylde. Blackpool, United Kingdom.
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
I found the expose on the Exclusive Bretren immensely intriguing and had no idea of the lengths that they go to maintain a separationist stance toward the world. (This must make biblical evangelism virtually impossible). I seem to recall that the Jews took this stance toward the gentiles so long ago and paid dearly for their sin.
I found you site interesting to browse, keep up the good work, and every blessing as you seek to bring healing to an already deeply divided body of believers.
Guest: Hazel
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: London
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
Dick-it was lovely to be able to put a face to the name! And to all those Ex peebs who took part in Everyman-well done and good luck to you all.
To Martin Long and "Shocked" - I have never been in the Bretheren but my partner has and I know many ex's as well. I found your comments sad as you really have no idea what the Brethren is about or how they treat those who dare to leave.
Several years ago my partner was diagnosed with a life threatening illness and contacted his family just to let them know. Their response was "well, we told you that would happen if you left!" They never visited him in the whole time he was having treatment or were interested in how he was doing. Fine, you may say -he knew that would be how they behaved towards him, yet years later (and because Mr Hales has given the ok)They have begun phoning and writing in an attempt to lure him back. They don't even listen when he says that he will never go back. I have never met my in-laws and they will not speak to me even if they phone my home and I happen to pick up the phone. As far as they are concerned neither I nor their grandchildren exist. Perhaps thats why they are so intent on splitting my family up-because we don't matter. Does this sound like a nice group of "christians" to you?
By the way-drugs, alcohol, under age sex, sex outside marriage, adultery, physical abuse, mental abuse etc DO take place in the Bretheren - They just throw you out if you get caught.
Much love to all the ex's, be strong and be happy.
Guest: Gregory Morris
Guest E-mail: deiniolgpm@btinternet.com
City, Country: Hawarden/Penarlâg, Wales
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
The phone lines have been humming in our family since this broadcast. Have just spoken to my outraged Grandmother (Mrs Peggy Greeves from Haywards Heath she doesn't mind who knows it!) who thinks that the EBs got off very lightly and that the programme was completely tame!
If the BBC would consult her in future she would tell them things that would make their hair stand on end about her experiences in the Brighton meeting.
I watched it again to check things. Dick W said that through links with the Insider he is now LESS INCLINED to think of the EBs as Evil and Demonic.
Like most things when you know someone personally in the system you realise they are real people with real feelings and many of them (God alone knows how) are believing Christians trying to work out their salvation sincerely believing in the rightness of their pathway.
Thank you Dick for your contributions I think they have been hugely helpful.
Greg
St Deiniol's Library
Hawarden
Wales
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
To SHOCKED.........
I totally agree with your message (copied below). Most entries on this site are from bitter people that can't get a life. Why leave the EB's and then just spend all your time critizing them? Like I say, get a life! P.S. Yes, I am an Ex E.B.
/////////////////////////////////////////
Interesting reading indeed. From an "outside" neutral point of view, it appears that the majority of the contributions on this site, are biased and twisted. I have been out for many years and only discovered this site recently. Those of you "hurt" by the brethren are bitter and twisted. Get on with your new lives and fight for a real cause eg against crime or drug abuse. Not against christians. Can anyone give me statistics on the brethrens divorce rate?? Or the pregnancy before marriage rate? Or the drug abuse rate? Or what about the percentage of businesses which fail to succeed??
These figures might show that they are worth something. But being a biased site, I guess you may conveniently fail to post this entry.
Guest: Ruth Warlow Previously Gilmore
Guest E-mail: ruth@mikewarlow.freeserve.co.uk
City, Country: Exeter, Devon. England.
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
Daughter of Peter and Shirley Gilmore formerly of Barnstaple North Devon. I was born into to EBS and we left as a family in 1970, with one of the off shoots, finally left the Brethren in approx 1974/5. If anyone remembers me please get in contact. Also I would appreciate any news of my family still in the EBS my uncle Colin Blake of Guildford Surrey England and his family. Also if there is anyone in the Exeter area who is leaving or has recently left the EBS who needs help or someone to talk to please contact me.
Guest: Peter Williams
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
To 'No Name Given': I'd forgotten about "dis-emanate" (Decemanate) -truely brethren speak. And "Put your pride in your pocket" - again brethren speak. This ones in the EB's for sure, and typical of their dictatorial attitude. Poor thing. Dear one, it's impossible to get reconciled with an inhumane system, or ignore it for that matter.
Guest: Peter
Guest E-mail: petesaura@aol.com
City, Country: Devon . UK
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
In Reply
(NORMALLY WHEN YOU DON'T (IN YOUR INNER HEART) BELIEVE SOMETHING IS RIGHT YOU MOVE ON AND LEAVE IT ALONE/BEHIND! IS THIS NOT SO? ) Having left the EB's 18 years ago and now working in counselling to help people with emotional problems. Can I inform you..that there are many people who come on this site who have endured Guilt, hurt, anger, financial hardship etc because of the EB's. It is hard to heal and move on when you cannot confront the people who hurt you. This site allows allows many people to express their hurt without feeling silly and knowing that they are not alone with their anger. For many it is helping them to feel normal again..and will allow them to move on in their lives. It is hard for anyone to understand unless you have been through the experience.
Guest: BB
Guest E-mail: tango1@pnc.com.au
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
To Peter 19 March I have not seen the doco but no, all of us have not gone to the extremes of others when we left the EBS. We left 10 yrs ago and have progressed in life beyond our wildest dreams, that does not say that we do not still hurt from the past. One of the biggest hurdles we have found is finding friends with the same high moral standards that we keep. No we have not been to church in 10 yrs we prefer to deal with god directly.
to no name Mar 19 Forget the past.. You have got to be kidding? The past is for most of us the first 20-30 yrs of our lives. I don't think you're for real anyway.
Guest: Bill, Perth
Date & Comments: March 20, 2003
To NO NAME GIVEN OF MARCH 19, 2003
Your comments warrant a small response. Either (1) you work as or for the entity monitoring this site on behalf of the EB's or (2) you are an EB.
If (1)you are a sad individual being remunerated by a cult to do their dirty work. If (2) you are a sad, ignorant twat. Rather than suggest what we should do, why don't you abide by the EB edict and cease using a computer and do us all a favour.
To Dick Wyman - keep up the good work - this response demonstrates the fact that the EB's don't like spotlights on their behaviour. "The truth hurts" as Mr No Name has proved.
Guest: Jos (Jocelyn) Currie
Guest E-mail: j.r.currie@clear.net.nz
City, Country: Auckland, New Zealand
Date & Comments: March 21, 2003
Guest: Tim Brady
Guest E-mail: tim_debbie777@yahoo.co.uk
City, Country: Bristol, England
Date & Comments: March 21, 2003
Married to Debbie Fleet (of Woking, England) who also escaped the EB's and has a book published from her diaries of her time trying to escape called "Shut up Sarah".
I left the EB's in 1984 just before my 18th birthday and after struggling to come to terms with the "world" in the early years, was able to find my feet and have been very blessed in many ways and could not be happier with life!
We now live in Wargrave, England just south of Henley-on-Thames. We currently have two wonderful children and have a third due to arrive in May 2003!
Contact details are address, 4 Blakes Lane, Hare Hatch, Wargrave, RG10 9TF, Tel 01189 406109.
Guest: Katie Marsh
Guest E-mail: beneaththefringe@yahoo.co.uk
City, Country: Gwent, Wales, U.K
Date & Comments: March 21, 2003
A evil and lawless sect operating under the name of religion
Guest: Graham
City, Country: Plymouth
Date & Comments: March 21, 2003
To no name
Methink's sad head, it is highly probable that you are one of the pathetic priest's from the Everyman report.
Has any one noticed that the countenance of most of the eb's bears witness against them. Where is the joy of the Lord? They look more like zombies, the walking dead, which I guess, being unable to think for themselves is what they have become.
Guest: Joan Ramsey
Guest E-mail: jr@joanramsey.net
City, Country: Belfast, Northern Ireland
Date & Comments: March 21, 2003
Does anyone recognise the name Ro(w)land Hill from EB circles in Glasgow, Scotland? He was born circa 1905, his parents were James Hill, ship's joiner, and Margaret nee Boyd. I am reasearching family history, and any information would be much appreciated.
Guest: No Name
Guest E-mail: No e-mail
City, Country: no country
Date & Comments: March 21, 2003
I just want to know why you guys sit around and take about (Peebs). You guys need to go on in life. You will Always be a peeb because you know of your past. If you all keep on taking about it that means you still think about it and want to go back.
Guest: Paul Young
Guest E-mail: jalesap@btopenworld.com
City, Country: Shanklin, Isle of Wight, U.K
Date & Comments: March 21, 2003
Just found website after Everyman programme. Been out 14 years. Recent contact recieved from 3 children who are now adults, who were babies when I last saw them. I have recently married. Used to be in Swindon. Am happy now. No religious beliefs. Was on slippery slope to loneliness, alcholism, and dispair, untill my new wife turned up out of the blue and showed me how to live.
Guest: John Hamill
Guest E-mail: quietist2003@yahoo.com
City, Country: N Ireland
Date & Comments: March 21, 2003
Hi all,
I was wondering if anyone could help me get in contact with a fellowship of so called Exclusive Brethren? I sincerely want to learn more about them and even consider joining them. I think it only right I am allowed to investigate them before making any decisions. I live in Armagh City in County Armagh Northern Ireland. If you can help in any way please do not hesitate to email me. Thank you.
Guest: Candace Merriweather
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: March 22, 2003
To No Name
No Name, No E-mail, No Country. No Sense.
Get a life - of any kind.
Guest: Marge Trewavas
Guest E-mail: marge_trewavas@hotmail.com
City, Country: Perth, Australia
Date & Comments: March 22, 2003
Thanks for the site Dick it's a great support to many. I am looking foward to my copy of the Everyman program which I should recieve next week - if anyone in Perth would like to borrow my copy they can contact me via email.
To the person who is thinking of joining from Northern Ireland why? Did you not watch the Everyman Program?
And to 'no name' 21st of March, you should have stayed at school long enough to have obtained better grammar and learned how to spell - or maybe you come from a religion where the children don't go to mainstream schools and belive that university is wicked - ah yes maybe that's it.
Guest: no name
Guest E-mail: no e-mail
City, Country: no country
Date & Comments: March 22, 2003
To Candace Merriweather
I've already have a real life and that is not talking about other people on a web site.
To Marge Trewaves
I know how to spell and use grammar maybe you just need to learn how to read and by the way I do go to school.
Guest: Debbie Cantley
Guest E-mail: debbie@eastcombe.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: March 22, 2003
How sad that anyone should use this fantastic website to be provocative. Those that do are truly sad people.
I saw my parents again today, and I was pleasantly surprised to receive no hint of any re-recruitment attempt. They seemed happy to talk as my parents seeing our children (their grandchildren) and accepting our differences. This may change, but our last two meetings have been pleasant experiences that have been positive.
I hope and believe we may see their attitude lightening up over the next couple of years. Let's face it, they can't go on in the same way in this modern world and hope to keep the new generations in, without change.
Let's hope things do change. Otherwise I will consider instigating a strategic campaign (Bush/Iraq style without the missiles) to free them all! Anyone interested?
Guest: Graham Frost
Guest E-mail: grahamfrost@hotmail.com
City, Country: Peterborough, U.K.
Date & Comments: March 22, 2003
I haven't put anything on this guest book for a while, but some of the recent comments have prompted me to do so again. I left the EB's in 1973, aged 17, having become disillusioned, and wanting to see what 'the world' had to offer. There have been ups and downs in the intervening years, but life has generally been a good experience. I watched the Everyman programme last week; it served to remind me of how fortunate I was to escape. I really don't believe that anything has changed, and, even if it had, I still wouldn't be going back. Since discovering this website about 2 1/2 years ago, I have been reunited with my brother, who left nearly two years ago, and I have made a lot of new friends, all over the world. We should not forget the magnitude of what this site has achieved for many people. I now have a small amount of contact with my parents, after over 25 years of being completely ostracised.
Thank you, Dick, and all the others who helped in the making of the Everyman programme.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend England
Date & Comments: March 23, 2003
Nice to see lots of new names here [in the wake of the TV programme?]. Welcome to all. You'll find all types of contributors to this guestbook, from the long-winded-boring-religious to the fun-loving, football-loving or whatever. There are even a few genuine specimens of the peebs, [plus some of their naive 'supporters'] trying to say the loonies should run the asylum.
There's also a good bit of nice, juicey 'slagging off' sometimes. But seriously, I'd recommend looking at the 'What's New' pages once in a while, and also the 'Names' page occasionaly: after you've scanned through it you can just check for 'updates' and entries marked 'new'.
I've listened to about 20 mins of the 'Aberdeen' tape accessible here. It's a graphic reminder of the scenario of a dominant leader reducing his followers to become a herd of lemmings - all in the name of God of course.
p.s Congratulations to Dick, Nick Gray, Jill, Andrew and Christine, Andy Giles and all involved in 'Everyman'.
p.p.s. To my old pal Kevin [whether you're a secret reader, or via the 'monitors'] listen. If your career in the peebs goes pear-shaped, and jealous rivals get you kicked out, please get in touch straight away. You know where I live, and my mobile is 07720 434139.
Guest: Sharon
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: NZ
Date & Comments: March 23, 2003
To no name
You are continuing to abuse people who have been through extreme trauma because of the cult you support, so, I will speak up this time. We think about the EB because we've been separated from loved ones thanks to EB rules and we wouldn't be human and certainly wouldn't be Christian if we did 'forget' our family members still in that system. I got a life as soon as I left then 18 years later they decide they are 'allowed' to make contact. Do you have a personal relationship with our Lord Jesus? It is very doubtful, as when you know the love and joy that it brings you would not be writing abuse on a website to people. How come you are using a computer anyway? By the way, your spelling and grammar ARE an embarassment!
Guest: Martyn ricketts
Date & Comments: March 23, 2003
Well, the Everyman Documentary was interesting I was saddened that not one of those who had left the EB's mentioned their relationship with God (if they had one) or testified of any faith in the Lord Jesus as far as I remember.
Yet one the three "Priest" interviewed certainly testified to what God had done in his life they all acknowledged that the Lord was returning soon!
It was also interesting that the lad who returned to the EB's acknowledged that the world had nothing to give him.
I'm not for one moment upholding the EB's separation of families etc etc but I am left wondering from hearing those interviewed who had left the EB's if they were any better off!
The truth is that our relationship with the Lord Jesus is not based on what group of Christians we belong to...it’s based on our own personal relationship with Him and Him alone.
Its not the "Man of God" that links us with God as EB's seem to infer. We have to have faith ourselves in God and this alone will keep us...
You have to admit that the media is a source that influences many lives for good and bad. The internet is a brilliant source of information but we all know that with a few clicks of the button we can be immersed in the lowest possible.
To say we are in the world but not of it is right, but to be selective in what we feel is the world is a bit narrow and however separate the EB,s may try to be we see the perfect example in Jesus.
He was separate from the influence of evil in His heart but it never hindered Him from talking to a prostitute, a woman who had had five husbands, a woman taken in adultery, publican's, sinners, tax collectors, the poor and needy, the religious, the proud and even you and me!
Perhaps the EB's would do well in looking at their community and they would find plenty of hurting and broken people out there. It’s easy to talk smugly about separation but it’s never from hurting people.
When the heart to reach the lost disappears from whatever group of Christians we belong to we go inwards, then we lose the reason why Jesus came. "I have come to seek and save that which was lost"
The work of the cross will stand for eternity...
Guest: Roy and Noreen Smith
Guest E-mail: ronosmith@terra.com.br
City, Country: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Date & Comments: March 23, 2003
Trying to find news of the Napthine family that used to be in London, as we have just met a young man called Peter Napthine here in Rio de Janeiro who says that he thinks he had relatives in the Exclusive Brethren. Any information would be interesting. Thankyou
Guest: Jenny Dowding (Nee McMullan)
Guest E-mail: jeninlinden@hotmail..com
City, Country: Belfast and Gloucester
Date & Comments: March 23, 20003
I have just found this site following the TV program. Someone at work told me about it. I don't know whether to laugh or cry when reading through. On the first day, I stayed up till 4 am reading and emailing old friends and relatives. I am so glad to find others who know what I have lived through. Sometimes I think that your current friends think u are making your past up. I would love to hear from anyone who knew me in the 1970's in Belfast or later in Gloucester.
I too have been contacted by my brother and visited by him and his son... after 22 years this is really wierd. They have asked me to go and see my mother who apparently is quite ill. I have mixed feelings about this as although there was no pressure put on me when they came to see me, I have got the gut feeling of them trying to get me back.... which I will never do.. indeed This is what I told the priest who came to ask if I would acept a visit from my brother.
Does anyone have any comments... I dont know whether to go or not. By the way, they have offered to pay my air fares and for the kids!! Pretty amazing as some of my kids are mixed race and they are aware of that!
Guest: George Hayward
Guest E-mail: george.hayward@maxnet.co.nz
City, Country: Wellington, New Zealand
Date & Comments: March 23, 2003
24 March 2003
Well, I have been taken by surprise: the "visits" have reached me after all, in spite of my earlier scepticism, (reasons in my 14 Dec 2002 entry, Guestbook page 25).
It started on Wed 5 Mar when my 38-year-old son Philip called, to ask if it would be alright for him to visit me, along with "Mr S_______" (one of the "elders"), to talk over what has happened in the past, and acknowledge that they have done things wrong. He said he wasn't calling to have a long talk then and there, but we did talk for ten minutes or so, as I asked him about the current family situation. To finish off, I gave him a Bible knowledge quiz, by saying I had experienced Manasseh and Ephraim, and he should look up what those names mean. (The reference is Genesis 41:51-52, Manasseh because "God has made me forget all my trouble and all my fathers house", and Ephraim, "God has made me fruitful in the land of my suffering.")
The visit itself was two days later, on Fri 7 March, and suffice it to say here, that it has just been another demonstration of the tunnel vision, self-deception and sad duplicity of this tragic cult and all who are still ensnared in it. I have submitted a fuller account for the "EB Visits" page elsewhere on this site.
Blessings to all,
-- George Hayward --
Guest: Darwin Franzen
Guest E-mail: dfranzen1@satx.rr.com
City, Country: San Antonio, Texas
Date & Comments: March 23, 2003
My mother Esther Marie Jensen, died when I was just 3 years old and I have very few memories consequently, so I am asking if there is anyone that would be willing to share with me any information about her I would appreciate it.
Also, I would appreciate any information how I could contact "Bud" and Lucille Chessum and family.
Guest: Vaughn Harvey
Guest E-mail: vaughnharvey@yahoo.co.uk
City, Country: Manchester, England
Date & Comments: March 24, 2003
Watched the Everyman programme and saw a lot of old faces, would love to get in touch with old friends to say hi but not just to whinge about the brethren, I've been through all that a long time ago and no longer feel the need! If anyone remembers me then please get in touch, it would be great to catch up. Kind regards -- Vaughn
Guest: Sarah Rowlands
Guest E-mail: rowlie76@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: March 24, 2003
Firstly a HUGE thanks to Dick, Jill and Nick Gray for all their hard work in producing the programme. It was great to be able to put faces to names at last. Thank you.
The programme was very different to what I thought it would be, I was hoping it was going to be more of a "Bashir-Jackson" type interview but no, instead we get a panel of "policemen" but hey, it was still interesting!
It is true to say however, that Owen Cook has returned to the EB's and seems to be happy (his brother married my sister), but there is always going to be that lure when ALL your family are still in. It can be a VERY tough life after leaving the EB. There are times when you feel totally confused about the whole scenario but when you analyse the situation, any feelings or thoughts you may have in favour of them are due to family ties.
I knew two of the "priests" personally (they are supposed to have got rid of the hierarchy since the "review" but hey??) and nothing much seems to have changed. I'm thinking that maybe the recent contacts with those who have left is a result of wanting to clear their own conscience as to the way in which "survivors" have been treated, rather than a genuine "wanting to get in touch because you are my family". Maybe they are afraid of any lawsuits put against them, I might be wrong, I don't know.
There were a couple of interesting comments that have stuck with me since the programme was broadcast, the first being from "Kev Dormer, "...we are the most responsible people on this earth.." They truly believe this and it makes me cringe 'cos that is not the way in which SOME of them behave. He was VERY forthcoming, a bit scary really.
The second was from Garth Christie, "...what really matters is our eternal destiny..." I wonder if he really realised what he said?? To me that said it all, it puts all the rules and "people judging" out of the window. Just because you don't go to church doesn't mean you are a bad person and attending church doesn't buy you a seat in heaven. What really matters is where you are with God as an individual (sorry if I sound like a "holy-c'moly").
For those who watched the programme who have never heard of the EB or been a part of, it didn't give a true impression of what REALLY goes on. How you have to wear a certain type of clothing or behave in a certain way.... I was told that it wasn't "sisterly" for me to be overtaking another peeb's car (probably 'cos I am a woman and he was a naff driver), and to be told that I had to wear tights in my own home!!
Oh it makes me giggle just sitting here typing his, they must have nothing better to do. Anyway come to think of it, what was he doing looking at my legs, I thought that was lustful! Ha Ha Ha
Thanks again for everything Dick, especially all your hard work in maintaining this site.
All the best.
Guest: Candace's Sister
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: March 24, 2003
I have just viewed the BBC Everyman programme. Wow!!! I could make a number of comments, but I would ask the EBs who read this just what they think "people" (neighbours, passersby) thought was going on when Laura was "shut up" for five weeks and visited daily by "priests". A young woman in a house alone daily visited by men only??? Not a very good "witness" in their community methinks.
Guest: Martyn Ricketts
Date & Comments: March 24, 2003
Hello again to all you happy visitors!
I posted the following a few weeks ago and have had no response.
My friend Rodney is very anxious to track down any friends or relatives of Alec Clark:
Previous posting was:
"I have a South African friend who attends the fellowship I go to (Vale of Evesham Christian Centre) who has asked me if I can track down a family who was in the Plymouth Brethren when his father lived in this country from 1923 to 1945The family's name is Clark and the father of the family was Alec Clark. The family lived on the outskirts of London.
My friend's father is Trevor Battersby and was born in 1923 in Fullum, London. The Clark family were very good to him and he worked for a company called Caribonun. This company supplied typewriter ribbons and carbon paper and Trevor Battersby went out to South Africa in 1945 to set up the company out there. He married a South African girl. He now lives in Melbourne Australia and is 80.
His son Rodney Battersby came to the UK in 2002 for a year and has 7 months left. Rodney is very interested in trying to make contact with the Clark family.
His father has asked him to try and see if any of the Clark family remember him and would very much like to know if Alex Clark is still alive.
If any one has any information of the Clark family or if any one remembers Trevor Battersby please can you contact me by email so I can pass the information of to Rodney."
Many thanks
God bless
Martyn Ricketts
Guest: Chris Harwood
Guest E-mail: ChrisH@PREC-bh.org.uk
City, Country: Buckhurst Hill, England
Date & Comments: March 25, 2003
Just found the site while creating a website for our church. A lot of understandable bitterness! I was about 16 when Aberdeen freed most of my family so am relatively unscathed.
By the grace of God (Good book -> What's So Amazing About Grace - Clancy) I later gave my life to Christ (having nominally done so aged 11 for underhand reasons), am happily married with two delightfull daughters. We all worship at a local independent church (OB roots undoubtedly) of which I am an elder.
My heart burns for those who are still scarred by Satan's work in corrupting Christian groupings.
May God bless everyone who visits this site; may they be freed from bitterness and be able to forgive. May you be free in Christ!
Guest: Diane (Symington) Sommer
Guest E-mail: diane_sommer@hotmail.com
City, Country: Lancaster, CA USA
Date & Comments: March 25, 2003
Guest: Mary Limbrick
Guest E-mail: mary@marloes11.freeserve.co.uk
Date & Comments: March 25, 2003
I thought you might like to hear a happy story. God certainly does move in mysterious ways and I have this wonderful website to thank for what you are about to read.
My husband and I left the Exclusives in March1971. When I was a girl of about 10 years old, two sisters from the meeting in Regina Canada visited the meeting I attended in Cheltenham and asked if anyone wanted a penfriend. I started to correspond with Mary Brown from Regina and we wrote to each other over the years.. In 1967 Mary and her friend Sharon Bransdon from Portland Oregon came across to England and stayed with us and we had a great time. It was lovely to meet her personally.
After we left the Exclusives, correspondence stopped abruptly I don't think I ever wrote to tell her we had left but presumably she must have heard somehow as she never wrote to me again.
Over the years I wondered what had happened to Mary and when I found this website I looked through the names of people on it and decided to write and ask if anyone had any news of her - for all I knew she might have left too! I composed a letter and was about to send it to someone in Canada and then realised there were a couple Ed and Margie who were actually from Regina itself.. Off went my email. For two weeks I heard nothing and then I had a reply from Margie who wrote - "I was delighted to receive your email. However did you find me? - I was married to Mary's brother!" I had emailed my penfriends sister in law! Margie and I have corresponded for two years now and have such a lot in common - we and our husbands are about the same age - we each have three children roughly the same ages and some grandchildren. We have both run Alpha courses and are very busy!
Last September we went to Toronto to see a relative. After spending a week in Toronto we flew from Toronto to Regina and were met by Ed and Margie who were kindness itself. We stayed at their home and then they took us (and they had arranged it all) to Cyprus Hills where we stayed in a log cabin for a night. We went round Maple Creek the next morning where Mary now lives and then on to Calgary, thence to Canmore followed by Kamloops then on to Vancouver all the while staying with friends or relatives of Ed and Margies.. From there we went across to Victoria where we received a very warm welcome from Ex- Exclusives. - We spent three nights there and then back to Vancouver to fly home and then Ed and Margie had to travel back across Canada to Regina. We had an absolutely marvellous time - it seems like a dream now - but everyone was so kind and we got on so well - we just wish we lived a little nearer to each other as we have so much in common. We do hope that Ed and Margie may visit us here and we can return their hospitality!
Incidentally we discovered that the reason we did not hear from Ed and Margie for two weeks in the beginning, was because they were actually over here in England. On one particular weekend of their trip we were away from home too and were just 12 miles apart!
Sadly Mary is still in the Exclusives and I would dearly have loved to have seen her when we were in Maple Creek but it was not to be.
If anyone who remembers us would like to get in touch we would be delighted to hear from them.
Guest: Bro William
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 26, 2003
Would the REAL J. N. Darby please stand up?
As well documented JND's Bible includes an insertion (2 Tim 2 vs 21 ) which has no known Greek or Latin origin, and appears in no other translation. The JND translation claims to be "a new translation from the original languages" Note: there are over 14,000 original Greek and Latin original manuscripts of the New Testament. Mr Darby in his revised preface to the second edition (1871)says, (page xix para 1) "the translation is borrowed in no way from any; it is my own translation" How interesting then to examine the translation of 2 Timothy 2 vs 21 in JND's English bible and JND's French translation which preceded it. The French translation (JND 1960) 2 Tim 2 vs 21 reads, "si donc quelqu, an se purifie ceux ci, il sera un vase a honeur, sanctifie, utile au maitre, prepare pour toute bonne oeuvre" The English (JND 1961) 2 Tim 2 vs 21 reads, "If therefore one shall have purified himself from these (in separating himself from them) he shall be a vessel to honour, sanctified, servicable to the Master, prepared for every good work" So the two translations contradict each other. Both are JND Translations, but the French has no parenthesis "in separating himself from them" Where did this addition come from, who added it,and which translation is right? The two stand in contradiction of each other, or perhaps it is ignotum per ignotious.
Guest: Sarah Bullimore (formerly Edmondson)
Guest E-mail: sarahbullimore@ogdenreclamation.co.uk
City, Country: Leeds, England
Date & Comments: March 26, 2003
I am not and never have been an EB but went to a High School in Liverpool during the early 80s in which an EB family attended (the Atmore family). Christine Atmore was one of my best friends (she also had an older brother Peter and a younger brother Timothy) and being a naturally curious teenager I would often quiz Christine about her seemingly odd beliefs but to no avail, she would tell me very little and made it clear, when I asked if I could go along to one of her meetings (held I believe in a meeting room somewhere around Calderstones Park), that I would not be welcome. I only ever visited her house once and was not invited in - I remember her mum bringing me out a drink into the street whilst Christine and I talked.
From what little I knew of the family they were always very pleasant and Christine and I were great friends at school (both playing the flute) and I have often wondered over the years whatever happened to Christine and whether she and her family are still "in".
There was also another family in the school that I seem to remember where the Browns (the girl being called Gelda (I think)) and Christine often hinted at what I now understand could have been some sort of "withdrawal from" within this family although she would never go into any detail.
I would be pleased to hear from anybody who knows anything about Christine and her family and whether it would be possible to ever get in touch with her.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: March 26, 2003
Although PB's stoutly claim JND as one of their "founding fathers" and have bookshelves full of his writings, they evidently don't read them-indeed if they did they would note several points-
The current position of PB's, where the gospel has been not only missrepresented, but appearently not even preached in sincerety and truth is clearly evidenced by their young people, who cannot answear the simple question- "do you know the Lord as your personal Saviour?" I wonder what JND would say to that?
Guest: Mark Ghinn
Guest E-mail: markghinn@yahoo.com
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: March 26, 2003
Re: Bro William's comment 26th March.
I recently picked up a brand new JND translation and read 2Timothy2. The brackets you mention have been removed but the text remains the same.
Mark
Guest: D Hayes
City, Country: Stockport Mcr England
Date & Comments: March 26, 2003
ex preston pb now married bringing up a 11 year old boy. I now find the basic teachings of the pbs a good yardstick. Right from wrong; respect, etc, However, I would never force any religious beliefs on him, only try and grow up with the same moral standards that I had the privilege to share.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: March 27, 2003
D Hayes (March 26, 2003) finds the basic teachings of the Brethren (on right from wrong, respect etc) to be a “good yardstick”. However, to make any such judgement requires a prior conception of morality, which must be independent of the Brethren’s teachings. The true “yardstick” is such independent standard of morality; not the Brethren’s teachings.
If, on the other hand, the Brethren’s teachings are judged to be a “good yardstick” simply because they are the Brethren’s teachings, then they are being judged by reference to themselves and not to any independent standard of morality. By definition, the same is also true of any teachings – not just the Brethren’s.
Either way, reference to the Brethren is irrelevant.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: March 27, 2003
Mark's comment (26 March) about the brackets having been removed from 2 Timothy 2 v 21 is quite fascinating. Darby was at least honest in putting square brackets round this rather long insertion to show that the words were put there to supposedly "complete the sense in English". Assuming this latest print is issued by the Hales cult, it is just another example of deliberate deception.
Oliver
Guest: Hemmerda Edwards
Guest E-mail: hemmerda@cox.net
City, Country: Manchester, CT 06040
Date & Comments: March 27, 2003
If anyone in the USA can get us a copy of the Everyman Documentary we would appreciate it.
Guest: Elizabeth Bunting
Guest E-mail: dbunting@shaw.ca
City, Country: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Date & Comments: March 27, 2003
This is addressed to no name, no country, dated March 19, 2003.
I am sorry that you were answered by some of our brothers and sisters in a slightly abrupt manner. You sound like a young person -- correct me if I am wrong, which I am frequently. Could you read over again some of the heartbreaking stories here and try to empathize with some of the hurt due to the separations of the families? We are not asking you to criticize the Exclusive Brethren people -- As a saint in fellowship naturally you feel you must defend the brethren but their extreme stand on "separation" in the past has been wrong. It is impossible to be free from the "presence" of sin in this world as proven by the presence of sin within the assemblies.
Do you think you could just re-read some of the stories of grief and loss among these saints of God and try to look upon them as those for whom Our Lord Jesus Christ died?
Thank you for considering this message. If you sense any criticism of yourself in the above, please do not feel that it is intended. I grew up in a meeting who thought they were right about everything and everybody and the Lord has had to deal with me.
Please reply to the website. We are very interested in how you are feeling and getting along.
Yours through grace,
Elizabeth Bunting
Guest: Anon
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: March 28, 2003
Is there a copy of Everyman in NZ? Would really like to see it. I do have an email address but would be too risky to reveal it because of business connections with PEEB's and we all know how sneaky they are at being able to access this site. Please leave a contact phone/address/email so that I can make contact with you. Thanks heaps and God Bless.
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: March 28, 2003
If Brethren ever had a "yardstick" it would be found totally wanting. God has already pronounced "MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN" against this cult. It will not be long now, before this Bablyonian cult will fall, our Lord Jesus Christ will not be continually mocked by those who claim to be his elect...indeed his words still echo out: "I never knew you, depart from me, you who practise lawlessness". For parents to cut off their children, which even a wild animal would not do, and leaders that order their members out of their own homes, casting out beloved pet animals, is LAWLESSNESS. NOw closely look at the "yardsticks" of Brethren. Take Darby for instance. By the way his Godfather Lord Nelson was the leading freemason of his day, so you see in that the gathering of satanic forces at his very birth, now this very same yardstick he measured Truth by, was the same yardstick he measured his relationship to his fiance by [who dearly loved him], he jilted her because he thought it would not be an advantageouds relationship for his ministry [some basis for Truth?]...or rather it did not suit his BLIND AMBITION to rule over brethren. This is the same yardstick all the rest of their ilk continued to use, that is Babylon, ask Saddam. "Take care what you listen to, By your standard of measure it shall be measured to you;" Mark4:24 Listen in your own heart now, to what the Spirit of Truth would have you beleive, GO TO THE SOURCE, like the 300 of old in the book of Judges, who lapped the water.
Guest: Charlie Patmore
Guest E-mail: charliepatmore@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: London UK
Date & Comments: March 28, 2003
Hi
Have just updated my details...
Guest: Martyn Ricketts
Date & Comments: March 29, 2003
I comment on the entry of Stephen Rogers on 28th March regarding JND.
I find the comments "so you see in that the gathering of satanic forces at his very birth" absolutely ridiculous. I find it strange that a movement that Mr Rogers seems to suggest was by the gathering of satanic forces has been a blessing to so many.
If Mr Rogers looks at the history of Brethren he will find that the message of the gospel was carried to all parts of the world by them.
Many gave their lives for the sake of the gospel. I have mentioned Jim Elliot before on this site who was murdered by Auca Indians in the 1950's together with 4 others. He valued the writings of Darby as many have and still do.
George Muller set up the Orphanage in Bristol in the 1800's and was indeed a man of faith. Charles Mackintosh writings and expositions still bless many today. The list goes on....
I fully agree that the current beliefs of the EB's is far from these early godly men but to infer that the "gathering of satanic forces" at the birth of JND is too far fetched.
Sorry Mr Rogers, you will have to do better than that!
Martyn Ricketts
Guest: Kingsley Truswell
Guest E-mail: kingbollocks@aol.com
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: March 29, 2003
dear no name
judge not men, ask only if the LORD is in your heart. if you are of HIM you will understand, know your scripture, and learn true peace.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: March 29, 2003
When you read Alan Ker's so called address listed under "what's new" and then read the Aberdeen transcripts-there is only one conclusion- absolute blasphemy- daring to compare the actions of JT jr, caught in the sack with [another man's] wife, to that of our Lord Jesus Christ who was on his way to Calvary. Any true believer in Christ would rise up and condemn such heresy. Sadly, we must conclude that "true believers in Christ" are rapidly becoming a minority in the PB's. If anyone questioned that this is not systemised error-look no further. Truly, "when light becomes darkness, how great the darkness"
Guest: Toad
Guest E-mail: toadhall@fastmail.fm
Date & Comments: March 30, 2003
Those that wish to revere JN Darby should note that he is considered the inventor of "dispensationalism" which predicts the return of the Jews to Palestine.
Both Lloyd George (UK PM in latter half of WW1) and his foreign secretary, Lord Balfour, were brought up in churches that taught the doctrine of dispensationalism.
A result of this was the British government's "Balfour Declaration" of 1917 which was the starting point for the present state of Israel. And the start of many current middle east conflicts such as the present war, where the Iraq government rages about the "Zionist aggressors."
Bet the Bushes don't know to blame Darby!
Guest: BB
Guest E-mail: tango1@pnc.com.au
City, Country: australia
Date & Comments: March 30, 2003
For the last couple of weeks I have been shopping on a Sunday afternoon between 3pm and 6pm and have seen others peebs shopping! This was definitely a no-no when we were members. has anybody else seen others out shopping on the ever sacred "lords day"?
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: March 30, 2003
I agree totally with brother Toad, I can understand Martyn seeking to defend Mr. Darby. I do not attack Mr. Darby personally, only those actions he demonstrated towards his fiance. On reflection Mr. Darby was just a victim, of satanic forces, that have used his doctrine of dispensationalism to give evil inspiration to two world wars and this present war. Mr. Bush is of Southern Baptist orientation with exposure to these bizarre interpretations of scripture, that Scofield adopted from Mr.Darby. I believe these same sinister forces amongst Brethren also produced probably the most evil man of our time, from amongst their ranks: Aleister Crowley, who called himself the Beast 666, and is considered the greatest satanist of the twentieth Century. These same forces have manifest themselves in their World Leaders down to Now. Satan has to have his Synagogue [headquarters] somewhere? What better camouflage can you have than Ex.Brethren? Remember Martyn, that if we are going to base the Truth on good works, then the Catholic Church would be the flag-bearer, look at Mother Theresa of Bombay, she believed the Pope had the truth. The Noumenon of this epistemology of truth, has its substratum in the Mind of Christ. The Spirit of Truth is the only point of contact with this Mind, within the cross of this space /time continuum, we know as the psychological NOW. The absence of self, will be your waking up to this truth, to "deny yourself."
Guest: alan m
Guest E-mail: matthew1963@hotmail.com
City, Country: Wellington, New Zealand
Date & Comments: March 29, 2003
My grateful thanks to MG for sending me a copy of the "Everyman" video. A good documentary. The E.B. in NZ made headlines a few years ago over a custody battle involving parents and children. Not much news of them these days but still see them around. Only the other week a family sitting at a picnic table at the beach where I live and sometimes buying McDonalds (taking it away of course). Thanks again
Guest: Brother Francis CCN
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: California
Date & Comments: March 30, 2003
George W. Bush is not a Southern Baptist; he's a Methodist. His father George Bush is an Anglican. Bill Clinton is a Baptist.
Guest: John Ware
Guest E-mail: johnr.ware@lineone.net
City, Country: , U.K.
Date & Comments: March 31, 2003
I am anxious to trace my brother's sister-in-law, originally Eunice Kilby, who left the Exclusive Brethren, probably in the early 1960's, and (I believe) married a Baptist Minister. So if you see this entry, Eunice, pleas e-mail me. Or if anyone else who knows Eunice sees this, please do the same, so that we can make contact.
Thanks!
Guest: Daniel Soukoreff
Guest E-mail: westernnameplates@bigfoot.com
City, Country: Vancouver, BC
Date & Comments: March 31, 2003
Wow Stephen Rodgers and Toad have JND reponsible
for the conflict in Israel, both World Wars, Iraq why not tack on Vietnam, Korea & Yugoslavia. Incredible, is just me or are some folks here really losing touch with reality? Martyn brings in some refreshing sanity, Thanks.
Daniel
Guest: Philip
Guest E-mail: philip1228@hotmail.com
City, Country: Gloucestershire UK
Date & Comments: March 31, 2003
Just had a phone call from one of the Elders of Gloucester, the main reason was to see if I had any info on the whereabouts of my Cousin 'David Reynolds' son of 'Hedley' of Cirencester
The last I heard of David he was living on his boat on the south coast, and his 'out' ex wife had just found him, cannot remember when but this was a few years ago..
If anyone knows him please pass a message.. his Father is seriously ill and wants him to contact him ASAP
Guest: Peter Harrison
Guest E-mail: peter.pan3399@virgin.net
City, Country: Derby, UK.
Date & Comments: March 31, 2003
(1) Christ, Christ changes everything,
hands and faces earth and sky.
Christ, Christ changes everything,
How we live and how we die.
Christ, our changeless Lord and King,
loving Saviour, friend amd brother - Yes,
Christ, Christ changes everything,
how I temble at his name,
Nothing in the world will ever be the same.
(2) Christ, Christ changes everything,
days are richer words mean more;
Christ, Christ changes everything
all our pain, for us he bore,
Christ will turn your world around
and that world will last for ever - Yes,
Christ, Christ changes everything,
God's great glory to proclaim.
Nothing in the world will ever be the same.
(3) Sent into the world we go
with his peace and in his name;
share his love with everyone,
for this reason Jesus came:
called by God to worship him,
in Christ's name we serve and follow - Yes,
Christ, Christ changes everyone,
live forever in his flame.
Christ will never never let us be the same.
Christ will never never let us be the same.
Sung to the tune, Love Changes Everything.
From 'Aspects of Love' by Sir Andrew Lloyd-Webber.
Guest: Toad
Guest E-mail: toadhall@fastmail.fm
Date & Comments: March 31, 2003
Daniel, I don't hold JND responsible for the two World Wars, Viet Nam etc.
He is to blame for the conflicts of the Middle East, and, of course, the ugly mess of brethrenism.