This page contains entries made between October 1, 2002 and December 31, 2002.
These names and addresses are posted to enable people to contact friends and loved ones. Please do not exploit this information for commercial purposes.
Guest: Eleanor
City, Country: Adelaide, South Australia
Date & Comments: October 3, 2002
Having left the church of our own accord my husband and I did not expect to hear from anyone in relation to returning to the fold. However a few weeks ago my father made contact after 8 years wanting to speak with me. I was quite willing to catch up with them as I had not seen them for so long. It went pretty much as expected with no real gain other than a much appreciated chance to catch up with my mother. My father made some comment about things changing and the fact that he had rung me was testament to that. The change was so sincere that I have not heard from him again. A few days later those in authority rang my husband and requested that they be allowed to come to our house and speak to him. The entire excercise was to apologize for things they felt they had handled inappropriately prior to us leaving, none of which had any bearing on our decision. Once their conscience was appeased they were ready to go. They had absolutely no interest whatsoever in what questions we had or what we wanted to say. So all in all we were unable to see any genuine change at all and certainly no reason to return to their beliefs. And just an observation: Once withdrawn from no communication is allowed on the basis of “Withdraw from iniquity” If their beliefs are not strong enough to ring up and enquire about their children's or grandchildren's well-being why are they still there anyway?
Guest: p m clarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
Date & Comments: October 4, 2002
Two words describe the Pb's-Pride and Arrogance.Webster's decribes them as follows: Pride-an undue sense of ones own superiority, arrogance, conceit. Arrogance-full of , or charactorized by excessive pride , or self esteem,overbearing ,haughty. This is nothing new, the same thing was written of the Pharisees of the Lord's time, and truely, the PB's have become the Pharisees of Christendom. Of all the things that they are guilty of, the greatest is that they dispise the work of God in other believers, and in doing so, have missrepresented the gospel.
The lesson to be learned is,what do we value the work of God as?What price to we put on it?Am I proud?Am I arrogant?How do I represent the gospel?Am I an ambassador for Jesus Christ?Just leaving the Pb's doesn't automatically rid ourselves of those traits- indeed, scripture says it is what is within that defiles us, not what is outward.
Guest: Olwyn Silby (nee Reardon)
Guest E-mail: olwyn_s@hotmail.com
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: October 6, 2002
Guest: Ken
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: October 6, 2002
To Suppressed of September 24
What a shame that the EB's deprived you of an education and the ability to reason.
Hopefully you are by now back where you belong; you will be able to spout your nonsense on a day by day basis, 365 days a year, for the rest of your life, and you will be in great company.
Dick Wyman maintains this site; he is not responsible for all comments on the site. Your personal attack at Dick demonstrates what a low form of humanity you are; albeit well suited for membership of the EB's.
So "on your bike" suppressed!
Guest: Peter Harrison
Guest E-mail: peterpan3399@virgin.net
City, Country: Derby UK
Date & Comments: October 7, 2002
To Mr Supressed 24 Sept.
Can you let us all know the name of the Mental Hospital that you've escaped from!
You are a joke! Sunshine!!
Guest: Jolie
Guest E-mail: via dwyman@cloudnet.com
City, Country: Kingston, Jamaica
Date & Comments: October 7, 2002
Can't believe such a site exsisted and glad to have found it.
Jolie
Guest: Frikkie Klopper
Guest E-mail: Grootpiel@ananzi.co.za
City, Country: Johannesburg, South Africa.
Date & Comments: October 9, 2002
This is indeed an extrordinary site. The Exclusives appear to believe that the Earth is a mere six thousand years old. Do they also believe it to be flat? Why do they wear blue headscarves? And why do they allow telephones and not fax machines or cellphones? They make much entertaining reading although of course I feel sorry for those whose lives have been disrupted and even sorrier for those who have been obliged to hang on to much of the teachings of the religion.
Guest: Tarn
Date & Comments: October 12, 2002
Guest: Helen
Guest E-mail: via dwyman@cloudnet.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: October 12, 2002
I have been contacted my my eb parents after 18 years to meet with them later this month. I am very excited at the prospect and have told them I will meet them on a 'social' basis only without priests which they have agreed to. They are going to meet my children, their grandchildren too for the very first time. I know they have always been anxious for photos and information about my children but still feel confused about the whole meeting. Many of you have been contacted by eb's and family still in, am I to expect that this will be a one-off? That is what I think it will probably be. But I would be grateful to hear if others have remained in contact and are likely to be able to see family members still in, again.
Guest: Vanessa Cummings nee Janson
Date & Comments: October 12, 2002
Thanks to Dick's site.
Through this site I have just found my father's first cousin Johanne Robinson nee Janson. We met yesterday in Tekapo, New Zealand and had a lovely day together. We are going to keep in touch. Thanks so much Dick.
Cheers Vanessa
Guest: Mickey boring mouse
Guest E-mail: hobomobo@psycho.net.uk
City, Country: London
Date & Comments: October 13, 2002
What a load of c___!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Guest: Jill Mytton
City, Country: Beckenham, UK
Date & Comments: October 14, 2002
Having just looked at the guest book after some time of not looking I am a bit puzzled by the vitriole that sometimes appears. Do we really need more unpleasantness aimed at another? I have been told by someone still in that the brethren regularly have the contents of this web-site printed off - this presumably includes the guestbook.
In addition a comment made by someone still in is about the bitterness which he reads on these pages - this is of course used to vindicate their position. You can of course write what you want but remember that the EBs DO read these pages.
Jill
Guest: GOLF SUPPLIES
Guest E-mail: http://soccerpartners.org/golf/main.html
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: October 15, 2002
NICE SITE
Guest: Philip Abercrombie
Guest E-mail: paberbie@optusnet.com.au
City, Country: Brisbane Australia (formerly Tauranga NZ)
Date & Comments: October 15, 2002
Love to hear from anyone who remembers me. I was excommunicated in July 1980 so have been out quite some time.
You're more than welcome to say 'gidday' and send me an email. Love to you all
Guest: Ted and Esther Druckenmiller
Guest E-mail: tedruck@quixnet.net
City, Country: Trenton, Missouri, USA
Date & Comments: October 15, 2002
Dear friends:
On August 6th Esther and I left a message on this site to let all know of our move from New Jersey to Trenton, Missouri. Now here 2 and a half months we're more thrilled than ever to have made the move.
However, we continue to carry a burdened heart for our grandson Neil Garlick who, we understand has been out of the EB fellowship since earlier this year. If anyone can give a clue of his whereabouts, how to contact him or put him in touch with us, we would be grateful. Our address is 113 Country Club Place, Trenton, MO 64683 and phone number 660 359 2288. Neil we look forward to hearing form you. Our home is available!
Dependant on all he has heard about us since 1977 when we were put out of the EB's, he may fear contacting us. We would gladly tell the other side of the story and assure him and any others of our children, grandchildren and brethren, of our love. Having been thrown out of that system was hard at the time, but in a few days and since has proven to be the best thing ever to have happended to Esther, nyself and our two youngest children, Garth and John. We have nothing but forgiveness in our hearts for them all.
Forgiveness provides a wonderful deliverance. I have forgiven Laurence Markham and John Macdougal for all the hardness they put us through, also poor old JHS, now passed on, whose untrue comments filled his ministry books at the time Esther and I went to court re our children in 78/79. Also, any and all who showed the hardness that results from failing to know and express the love of God so manifest in Jesus His well beloved Son.
So far not one of the Westfield NJ brethren have contacted us to review the shameful way I was withdrawn from in my living room the night of September 19, 1977 and told I could come to the assembly meeting the next night and "Fight my own case." Also, my dear brother John has never said sorry for locking our father in a room in his home when they went off to meetings. Finding this to be true I went with my older brother Paul and took our dad out of the home to live with Esther and myself in a family affectionate environment. We had the privildge to care for him five years till the Lord took him home. John was so surprised upon returning home from meeting and not finding his dad in the locked up room that he took me to court for trespassing. The judge hearing this case dismissed it saying of Paul and myself who took father out, "This is a simple case of two men who wanted to visit their father. They had every right to do so and that not through the window, and I dismiss the case." Ephesians 5:14 has a wonderful message for all sleepy Christians, "Wake up thou that sleepest, and arise from among the dead, and Christ will shine upon thee." I myself still admit the need for a nudge now and again! We tend to drift off. We need beloved friends to keep alert at the present time as we await the comming of our absent Lord and Savior who "will come and will not delay." Hebrews 10:37. Esther and I just returned yesterday from San Francisco where we were considering the subject of "The comming of the Lord." A very fine three days. It will do our hearts good to keep thinking about this a lot more. 1 John 3:2,3 reads "we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure." Lot of love to all, Ted and Esther Druckenmiller
Guest: David Tracey
City, Country: Cambridge, England
Date & Comments: October 15, 2002
I'm interested in comments seen in these postings which mention 'priests,' usually in a context which indicates some position of special authority. Having grown up in the Open Brethren, I assumed that the EB's adopted the same principle of the priesthood of all believers. Is this not the case, or has the word acquired some special meaning? Apologies if this isn't an appropriate submission for a guestbook entry, but I wasn't sure where else to ask.
Guest: John Gibbs
Guest E-mail: mandy_gibbs@fastmail.fm
City, Country: Johannesburg, South Africa
Date & Comments: October 16, 2002
Dear Anne Landers,
My son and I spent most of the weekend getting our pool ready for summer. While we were slogging away, I told my son how pools had to be filled in when I was his age and the thought struck me that the very rule that started me questioning brethren rules is the one I would have quite happily obeyed today!
Does this mean that I am ready to consider the brethren's amnesty offer? and will the priests organise an interview with me too on their next visit to south Africa? and why didn't they contact me on their last visit? I am particularly interested in their "no strings attached" offer made to others to relocate them to Oz.
Signed, LEFT OUT
Guest: anonexeb
Guest E-mail: anonexeb@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: October 17, 2002
17 th October, 02
In response to David Tracey. David the term "priests" is "brethren speak" for those in authority who attend the spiritually sick(?), Galations 6:1 style. Borrowed of course from the Jewish priestly system where a priest visited the leper, for example, and had to pronounce him clean before the rank and file of the people made contact.
Undoubtedly used by the system to strike a measure of fear into the hearts of the errant and uphold the "class" superiority of the ruling group.
Not to be confused with the "priesthood of all believers", a term hardly used in these brethren's circles. Whilst paying lip service to such traditionally brethren doctrines, they in fact deny the truth of this by the reversion to Judaistic principles in their assembly administration.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: October 17, 2002
Re query on priests by David Tracey, October 15.
Yes, up to the 1960's the Jims genuinely believed in the priesthood of all believers. But then Taylor and especially the Hales brothers introduced the idea of priests as being special brothers who could "deal with evil", like priests examining lepers in the Old Testament. In 1965 Bruce Hales senior and John Hales pushed the concept of everyone having to confess their sins to a priest. Taylor actually shot that particular one down after a few months -- he had been ill and out of circulation (alcohol-related); I don't know whether it got up again after his death.
My father, as a "priest", took the decision to shut me up, which meant stay in your bedroom and we'll slip your meals round the door, and many others have experienced similar priestly treatment !
Cheers.... Oliver
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
Date & Comments: October 17, 2002
It is interesting to note that EXPB's claim JND as one of the early founders of what became known as brethren, mainly for his excercise about leaving a clergy based system-and claim this as a fundamental diferance between them and "christendom" [everyone else but them] yet have set up a heirarchy that rivals the most organized system in the world-including titles ie. "The Man of God", "The Elect vessel" and "Priests" Just more evidence that they have become the Pharisees of christendom. Of course, as always, noting error in others should always cause one to examine our own hearts, otherwise we are just as guilty as they.
Check out the link Dick posted on "What's New"-a very enlightening and valuable addition that highlights just how far we have got away from the original principles and excercises of early brethren.
Guest: Alan Carvell
Guest E-mail: alancarvell1@aol.com
City, Country: Dudley
Date & Comments: October 17, 2002
Well folks, sorry to upset you! But as you know I had my meeting with my family, and they failed to convert me back, so the TV, Video, computer etc, etc. are not up for sale! Still taking offers on the wife though!!!............ It was nice to see my Mom and brothers, but (in a house, no ornaments, photo’s, paintings!!)
Reminded me of a waiting room at a refugee camp! - not that I frequent them on a weekly basis! - As expected they tried the religious bit, (nice!!!)
I put it to them why they can’t mix with all races, (as I do,) and does it matter what colour or religion we are, why do the Brethren put themselves on a pedestal and claim to be the elite??!! Their answer was because we are!!! - says it all doesn’t it!!.
We didn’t get anywhere, except I had the satisfaction of meeting my Mom, (now 83) and brothers. But sad to see my brother Pete who is paralysed from the waist down in a wheelchair, but seems to be coping OK.
I’ve since heard no more, except from my Mother who has written a note that she was concerned I did not own a Bible, and has sent me one with my initials embossed in gold, that brought back memories! (I would have preferred tickets to a Birmingham City match, or money, but life’s a bitch!!!!!)
So to those of you out there, who have been, or who will be contacted, don’t hold too much hope, IT IS FOR THEIR BENEFIT ONLY!!!!
On a final note B’ham City FC. play our rivals West Bromwich Albion on Saturday, as before please pray for the Blues that they will win, as you did to get us into the premiership!!!
Guest: Mark Davies
Guest E-mail: markdavies60@hotmail.com
City, Country: London England
Date & Comments: October 19, 2002
If you know me get in touch !
Guest: Tarn How
Guest E-mail: rednblackgirl@hotmail.com
City, Country: NZ
Date & Comments: October 21, 2002
Hi there Tarn....you know you left your 'name' but nothing more on October 12. I just ask are you a genuine Tarn or some sick peeb browsing this site? Anyway cheers bud, and hey please leave your email address next time. I'd like to catch up.
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne Australia
Date & Comments: October 22, 2002
I would like to correspond with someone that knows Jesus as a "living Realty" of his/her own being, and not just a formulation of ideas and thoughts and emotions within their mind, that they have acquired second-hand from others. The worship of God, Jesus tells us, is in "Spirit and in Truth". How many know absolute Truth and not relative Truth. By relative Truth I mean that form of truth acquired second-hand from others. By Absolute Truth I mean a transmission by Divine grace. How many know Jesus as an idol of their formulated concepts and feelings within their mind. How many know Jesus as their TRUE IDENTITY, the "first-born of every creature"? How many are prepared to be "pure in heart" and see God for what HE IS?
Guest: Michael Gurr
Guest E-mail: magic.mick@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Bedford England
Date & Comments: October 23, 2002
I am so pleased to have found this site so a big thank you to Dick, I have recently made contact with others who are out (and become good friends), I have also had a meeting with my brother, the first real contact for 30 yrs. So live in hope, remember the Berlin Wall came down. Love and best to you all. Mick.
Guest: Dennis Hope
Guest E-mail: hopes@shaw.ca
City, Country: Calgary Alberta, Canada
Date & Comments: October 23, 2002
I am formally from Maple Creek Saskatchewan.
I left in 1973..........
My parents names are George Hope(passed away April 2000) Joan Hope(nee Stowell)
Ph# 403-569-0519
Guest: anon
Guest E-mail: wallaby99@bigfoot.com
City, Country: London UK
Date & Comments: October 24, 2002
I would be very interested to know of any news of my relations, the Sloggetts. The whole extended family was in the Taylorites until the 1980's since then some have left, but some are still in. Thank you
Guest: BBXX
Guest E-mail: Blackbirdxx@Ntlworld.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: October 25, 2002
Cameron Elkins, do you have a new email address ? Drop us a line.......Cheers !
Guest: Bruce Conyngham
Guest E-mail: rbcon@maxnet.co.nz
City, Country: Albany New Zealand
Date & Comments: October 25, 2002
My mother Helen Mary Conyngham [m. Reg Conyngham - dec. 1980] nee PIESSE d. of Mary MCgaveston and Christopher Gisborne PIESSE, died July 2002 after a short illess at the age of 97. She was the eldest of her siblings all of whom and their spouses, predeceased her. They were Muriel [m. Philip DOOUSS]: Victor P. [m. Renie Marshall] and Frank. The Conynghams, Doousses and Frank Piesses were out of the ExPBs for many years. Would those sending news consider including more genealogical type information? This could be very useful in the long term as well as now.
Guest: Dr R. K. LAL
Guest E-mail: rk.lal@cimap.res.in Drrklal@netscape.net
City, Country: Lucknow -INDIA
Date & Comments: October 26, 2002
I like this site very much
Guest: Hazel Henderson (kinnes)
Guest E-mail: hsk@sennik abelgratis.co.uk
City, Country: Scotland
Date & Comments: October 26, 2002
Received into fellowship in Markinch, Commercial Street when I was 12 yrs. old. Father withdrawn from re eating question 1959-60, sister Eilidh and self followed. Married 1963, sister married 1968 and both still loving Jesus more and more each day. Both husbands born again. I have two sons, sister no family. One son, born again, and married to a lovely christian girl has one daughter, other son still undecided, please pray for him - he is married with three sons. We felt lost and a sense of not belonging when withdrawn from, but God in His great mercy has never let us go. My sister become a member with the Open Brethren and we ourselves worshipped with them for a while. We now worship at a Baptist Church in Kirkcaldy. Would like to hear from other long lost friends who were in Fife from 1950 onwards.
Guest: Wesley Franzen
Guest E-mail: franzen7_6onbearsfootball@satx.rr.com
City, Country: San Antonio, USA
Date & Comments: October 26, 2002
I left in May of 2000. My Mother has been to this site several times, so I decided to check it out. I am 13, and I left the bretheren when I was 11 with the rest of my family. Just thought I'd check out the site, and read a few of the humor stories.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend England
Date & Comments: October 27, 2002
The UK Government is overhauling charity law, the major change being the [proper] requirement that charities exist for the public benefit - which, of course, can hardly be said of the numerous peeb trusts. The Guardian published some details at http://society.guardian.co.uk/charityreform/story/0,11494,798819,00.html. There are links to the full document [97 pages], the forward by Tony Blair is worth reading at least. Any comments on this can be sent to the government during the consultation period which lasts til the end of the year.
While the peebs seem to be floundering around at the moment, trying to reconsider their traditional obnoxious way of treating most people, are there any suggestions of changes they should make to stop being such a disgrace to the God whom they claim to represent?
Guest: Nathan Cheng
Guest E-mail: nathan_w_cheng@yahoo.com
City, Country: Irvine, CA, USA
Date & Comments: October 27, 2002
I grew up in a family that has received much help from the late Watchman Nee and the late Witness Lee, Christian ministers who received much help from Darby and the Brethren. Though I have never met with any Brethren assembly, I feel as though my personal experience has some elements in common with the experiences narrated on this site; though instead of being mainly negative, my experience has been in every way extremely positive.
Here is the URL to a site that summarizes the history of the Brethren and their "difficulties", and then briefly relates them to Nee and Lee:
Guest: Gerry Spiers
Guest E-mail: gerryspiers@fsmail.net
City, Country: Worcester
Date & Comments: October 27, 2002
To Alan Carvell - Phew, I was getting worried for a while there mate, but good to see you weren't kidnapped. I haven't had my call up yet, but I was only six in 1970 when my folks withdrew to the relative safety of the Frosties. So I guess they don't give a s..t about me! Do I care? What do you think? By the way - if I was a praying man, I would pray for the Blues, but I'm afraid that the red side of Mersey takes precedence! Sorry.
Guest: John McMullan
Guest E-mail: dove@oberon.ark.com
City, Country: Heriot Bay, BC, Canada
Date & Comments: October 27, 2002
I was wondering if there are any friends or relatives of the late AW Roach?
Guest: Anon
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: October 28, 2002
A couple of days back a freind of ours lives up contry and told us that the brethren were coming to see children and sometimes bribing them with money and a holiday in the hope of getting them back. Has anyone else had this happen to their kids or is it just the one area of England?
We have to be able to protect our kids from their clutches but if they start using money as a weapon, what kid would'nt love a bit of money?
I just hope that there might be someone on this site that it has happened to so that maybe they can tell us how it went and what happened.
Guest: Bud Morris
Guest E-mail: bud@poetique.cc
City, Country: Delavan, Illinois (USA)
Date & Comments: October 29, 2002
I am sure that the "Jimmys" were the most cultic of the Exclusive Brethren groups. We (TWs) always referred to them as "the Ravens" because that was the division where the two groups branched away from each other. The TW's never separated from family members who were not breaking bread, etc., but I get frequent leters from other Ex TW and KLC Exclusives that demosntrate a lot of mental scarring from exclusivism. Sometimes they rub my own scars into raw weeping wounds again.
What hurts me is to see so many throw out the baby with the bath. Don't give up the joy of knowing Christ, and don't give up the joy of meeting in a Scriptural way. (Maybe you should check out the Opens in your area.)
By way of Christian encouragement, let me invite you to try my poetry page at www.poetique.cc.
Respectfully,
Bud Morris
Guest: Sheila Seesahai
City, Country: Winnipeg, Canada
Date & Comments: October 29, 2002
Hello, Wesley Franzen from San Antonio. I am your cousin! My parents are Elsie and Tony MacLachlan. I am their younger daughter. I have a son, not quite as old as you; he is seven. Your Mom stayed at my house when she came here a couple of years ago. Nice to 'meet' you Wesley.
-Sheila
Guest: C
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: October 30, 2002
I know of someone who works for a group of EB's and some of the stories I've heard seem rather strange. I was curious, if you don't mind me asking, is it true that an EB male is unable to have "relations" with his wife unless they are trying to have children? Also I was told that they are limited to no more than 4 children which would explain why most seem to have the required amount. It would also explain a lot of other things if this were true.
Guest: Mark Gillingham
Guest E-mail: mark@courtyard-partnership.co.uk
City, Country: Wiltshire, England
Date & Comments: October 30, 2002
With reference to the rumour of bribery of children, a young, single ex-EB that I know was recently visited late at night at his house by some EB relatives from another city, and invited away for a week-end, no strings (apparently) attached. They also asked him to accept £100 from them. Feeling rather insulted, he firstly refused the money, but later decided to take it, since £100 buys a lot of useful things!! He didn't accept the invitation, and happily, they went away, poorer and possibly, wiser.
Guest: Martyn Ricketts
City, Country: Evesham, Worcestershire
Date & Comments: October 30, 2002
Just thought I would add a few comments to encourage folk out there.
Having been brought up with the Brethren from the cradle (left EBs in 1970) I would like to point out that I am very thank full for a lot of the sound teaching that was amongst the Brethren. Whilst I feel for many who have been separated from family in recent years, I am thankful for the godly influence of my parents (Stanley and Joyce Ricketts of Evesham) and the influence they had on my life.
It needs to be pointed out to many who vist this site that not everything to do with the Brethren was wrong. No movement is perfect..even the Church of England is unclear on some clear biblical issues!!
As I have said before on this site we have a message for a lost world..a message of hope and salvation that many from the Brethren gave their lives for. We are called to share the gospel of the Lord Jesus too. Forget running the Brethren down. Life is too short and eternity is before us. We will all have to give an account for our lives before God. Often we can use the past as an excuse for not walking with God but it will not be a good enough excuse for Him.
Let's use this site to encourage God's people..instead of unkind words what not share a verse of scripture that may strenghen some one who has family in the EBs?
God bless you all
Martyn Ricketts
Guest: DC
Guest E-mail: don't have one
City, Country: Gisbn New Zealand
Date & Comments: October 31, 2002
I do not think this is a very good site to have on the web.I suggest you swipe it.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: November 1, 2002
If, like many other ex-Brethren, Martyn Ricketts has recently received an invitation to return, he might do well to accept.
Guest: David Shephard
Guest E-mail: d.shephard@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Bedford, England
Date & Comments: November 1, 2002
An Exclusive Brethren family have recently moved to a house just 4 doors away from me so I see quite a bit of their movements. I was amazed earlier today to see that they have Halloween objects in their front window! These Brethren are normally so separate from "the world and the things of this world" that I find it strange that they can keep a day that is linked with witchcraft etc!
Guest: Francis Mortyn
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: November 1, 2002
Saturday November 2 is a special day - All Souls Day - on which to remember in prayer those who have died in the Christian faith. Please exercise the spirit of forgiveness with a gracious word in prayer about even those whom you feel have harmed you. Let us never speak unkindly of the Brethren and their leaders but rather recalling that they too are members of Christ's very body, the one Holy Church, and beloved of him even as you and I are, light a candle and offer up their names to the Lord on All Souls Day. Each of us can seek to excel at forgiving the trespasses of others even as we enjoy the forgiveness of our Father. .. ..
Guest: Mark Watson
Guest E-mail: radar@radarsbluesandgraphics.com
City, Country: Wollongong NSW Australia (Ex Tahmoor/Picton EB's)
Date & Comments: November 1, 2002
Without any vaild reason DC says that this is not a very good site to have on the web and that it should be swiped.
It would appear just from that comment, that either 1/ DC is an insider, or 2/ DC does not understand just what this site means to people who are no longer in the EB's for whatever reason.
Despite the opression/repression/hypocrosies/ and wrong doings dished out to many in the EB's, people do form associations and friendships, whether it be of a christian or a non christian nature.
This very site has brought many of those friendships back together, and as an added bonus has aided in the healing process for many who are no longer in the EB's. People who have not experienced what it was like to be in the cult, would only be able to grasp a limited understanding of what we have felt/endured, what we are going through, and how we have overcome the adjustment to reality if having been able to do so.
To swipe a site that has more healing potential than the entire global medical profession, and brings back together friends and families once torn apart, would be a travesty.
Although no longer following the Christian path (and quite happy with my life), being judgemental is definately not a trait befitting anyone who claims to be a christian.
There are those who believe and those who don't, and although once a believer, circumstances and events helped me choose the direction in life that I thankfully took. That does not make me any better or any less than a christian.
So DC, if you feel that this site does not belong on the web, please offer an explanation as to why, and list some alternatives. And also we won't bite you if you reveal who you are.
Also to my friends and anyone who knows me, please note my new email address.
cheers
Radar (Mark Watson)
Guest: Tim Twinam
Guest E-mail: timt@surfbest.net
City, Country: Stowe, Vermont, USA
Date & Comments: November 3, 2002
To Richard Green:
Why would someone with the wisdom, discernment and intelligence to pick out what was Good from what was Bad want to return to the Dead Zone?
Anyone that studies the history of the Brethren can see that there were once mighty men and women amongst them. There were dramatic theological concepts taught by early PB fathers that have spread globally and have positively affected the way millions of Christians worship. Admittedly, a mixture of spiritual and intellectual pride within the EB's eventually stifled most of the Good ... but that does not mean that the Good never existed!
Let's be gentle with one another and watch that 'baby in the bathtub'! We have all suffered.
Peace, Tim
Guest: Philip & Margaret Hoyle
Guest E-mail: mapahoyle@xtra.co.nz
City, Country: Whangarei, New Zealand
Date & Comments: November 3, 2002
We were in the E.B.s in Maungaturoto, N.Z. Left in early 1970s. My wife`s maiden name is Boakes. Daughter of Auther & Angelea Boakes. We have 3 grown up childen all married & have 4 grandchilden, 2 boys, 2 girls.
Guest: Vamessa Cummings
Date & Comments: November 4, 2002
To the Person from Gisbourne NZ
The trouble with people who don't like this site is that the truth hurts and you don't really want to know the truth..
Get your self a life and live.
Cheers ex hastings nz
Guest: Oliver Bedford
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: November 5, 2002
It is pretty clear that the Jims' numbers-boosting exercise is being carried out on a rather selective basis. Anyone who left in 1970 or earlier seems to be regarded as "the pits". On a visit to England only last month I phoned my mother, but when I offered to visit her she said no, we have to maintain separation, you have chosen your way of life. None of my cousins has been approached either, including those who left later in the 1970's. I don't think the Halesian tiger is changing its stripes, maybe just smiling before it gets on with its next feed.
Oliver
Guest: Doug
City, Country: Belfast
Date & Comments: November 5, 2002
I often see in some of our local shopping malls, families where the the ladies have generally waist length hair covered by a headscarf and ankle length skirts, also the younger ladies are dressed in an identical fashion. Some people I have spoken to have said they are either Plymouth or Exclusive Brethren, or some have suggested, an independent methodist sect. I know Brethren folks dress in a similar fashion but not as "extreme", is this the "norm" for EB/PB dress code? and do they not believe, within reason, believers should be able to dress in an "individual" style, as long as it is "modest". I would be interested in your comments. One more question/comment, how do they "evangelise or attract" new adherents?
Guest: peter
Guest E-mail: pjmccormack20@hotmail.com
City, Country: Belfast
Date & Comments: November 5, 2002
RE Oliver Bedford's entry
It would appear it is being left to individuals to become "exercised" about someone and then to follow it up with a fellow "priest". I know of at least one who left in 1970 who has been approached, so this is not necessarily a factor in choosing. What will probably guarantee freedom from approach is if you have been labelled as an active opposer or potential troublemaker.
Guest: G H
Guest E-mail: boyzen83@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: November 6, 2002
My partner left the church 5 years ago and since then he has been struggling. We met a year ago and he moved to stay with me. Everything went well, we lost contact with the peebs (which is good) and started building our own life until they managed to track us down. For the past months, they have been calling him up everyday and pressuring him to return home using the family as a bait. He finally couldn't take it and last week, he left without a word. I was left in the dark. Apparently they must had threatened him about something. I know he left unwillingly and he will suffer back at home again. What can I do? Will there be anyone who can help me in this situation? I am not able to contact him at all.
Guest: Glenda Kilroe's relative
City, Country: Canada
Date & Comments: November 6, 2002
Hi Glenda I'am still a peeb so I don't wanna say my name cuz I could get crap for being on here but I'am at school so no one knows. Too bad Grandma died I miss her so bad and Grandpa so lonely now he came to visit us a while ago he's really weak, if you're viiting him don't tell him about this cuz like I said I could get in a lot of crap bye 4 now P.S look forward to hearing from you
Guest: a current EB
City, Country: Victoria Canada
Date & Comments: November 6, 2002
It's so funny to hear of all you people. Some of you my dad was best friends with others I see your parents or family at 3 days or fellowship meetings. However being a EB is hard and some things are pretty messed up still. I wonder about leaving sometimes but then think of my family and just can't. It's so sad to see so many people were so sucked into Jim Desidns program. I am going to 3 Days with Bruce Hales in Decamber. He really is a nice man.
However I gotta go now Some Please get back to me I'am here often But this my first entery
Guest: Pete
Guest E-mail: petesaura@aol.com
City, Country: Devon. UK
Date & Comments: November 6, 2002
Well, I have had my call after 17 years from my older brother to say sorry. There was a long silence when I said I wanted to thank him for the life changing event of being kicked out. The best thing that ever happened to me! But I have now passed on the good news to my wife who was never of the EB's.
We could all go back BUT she must stop shaving her legs...grow hairy armpits..take off the make-up...become an alcoholic and never answer back, cook for the thousands, give up watching Pop idols, Coronation Street, Emerdale, say goodbye to her family (whoopee)
I can't understand what she is waiting for!!
Guest: Dr Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: November 6, 2002
I am saddened by what GH has expressed. I wish that I could do something, but I can't, and it is hard to explain to someone never amongst the peebs, that those who have left, and particularly those active here, are 'of the devil'.
I am aware of this case having been in contact with his friend who comes from a well known peebs family - he is also registered in the 'names' list here.
This is a clear case of the typical peeb pressure-pressure-pressure tactic that has finally broken down someone's defences. We are talking about a young adult vulnerable materially, but in a an excellent realtionship he could never have in the peebs [his words to me].
They will use anything, any enticement at all and in this case have 'spirited' the person away from another country back here to Australia.
Let us never underestimate the power and influence of the devil. If this person has regrets again - he has already gone home temporarily once - there will be no limitt to what they will do to keep him. If he attempts to take his own life, as he did before, they may well view that as the 'penalty' for his sin. In any event I would expect that they will regard him forever as 'morally blemished' because of the lifestyle he chose.
This is a clear case of our utter helplessness. Maybe someone has a suggestion - I have the locational details - I would be most surpirsed if this person took this move of his own free will.
Any who are thinking of going back - just think of why you left ... and you will be regarded as 'stained' and you will also be reminded that you have a 'moral history' [negative emphasis - you'll be a hero for 5 minutes then become almost untouchable.]
Guest: G H
Guest E-mail: boyzen83@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: November 6, 2002
Dear friends,
I am writing again with regards to my partner who has gone back to the church. I have tried to contact him but in vain and from what I had gathered, he is now under the care of 2 elders. His father refused to let me speak to him and he should be put on guard now. Although he returned to the church on his own, he did it unwillingly. Adrian hates the church (its too harsh a word but its the only I can think of) and the only reason why he might go back is because of the immense pressure he got from his family. He misses his mum a lot. This is the second time he has done it and although most of us speculate that it will only be a matter of days or weeks before he leaves again, I am pretty sure his family and the church would have known his tricks by now and I am scared at the thought of him being stuck in there. Even if he really does want to go back to the church and even if he isn't my partner, I will do all I can to stop it because I know what he really wants in his life. All he ever wanted in life is just the simple pleasures that we have all taken for granted. I hope I can do something to help but there's pretty much nothing I can do except plea for help here as I am overseas and I do not know anyone in his area nor any ex-peebs. His family is located in Beaconsfield/Berwick, Vic, Aus. I have his full address and other information that may prove handy and if anyone here is willing to help, please either email me or contact Peter J French at 0413 126 728. Although I do not know much about the peebs but I do share the pain of many others. My partner left without a word nor hint and the worst thing is when you know there's someone out there who truly loves you but you might not see him again. I am terribly shaken by this whole incident and all I can do now is to pray for him and many others.
Guest: Steve Ballard
Guest E-mail: sballard@interchange.ubc.ca
City, Country: Vancouver, Canada
Date & Comments: November 7, 2002
To: a current EB in Victoria, Canada.
You might remember me and you will certainly know my family. Feel free to check out my entry on this site under the "Names" section. I am now a lawyer in Vancouver. You will probably know that I had a very "bad" reputation amongst the brethren as a result of being withdrawn from in 1988. Recently, the brethren contacted me to advise that my "case" was mishandled and that I should have been treated differently. I am very glad to be out of the brethren and I have a much more rewarding and enjoyable life now than I ever could have had if I had stayed in the brethren.
I am in regular contact with a number of the brethren up and down the coast (who are definitely not supposed to be talking to me). I have made sure that each one of them can trust me not to reveal who they are. If you want to email me, I would be more than happy to talk to you and if you need any help, I would see what I can do.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: November 7, 2002
To the kids from Victoria and area still "in" the pb's.
I know your parents, grew up with them, know your grandparents and still consider them friends, no matter what you have been told about us. We make no claims other than wanting to be here as ambassadors for Jesus Christ and to do what He would have done- shepherd the sheep and feed the lambs, visit the sick and bind up the broken hearted, and preach the gospel of salvation. We strongly affirm the neccesity of having a personal knowlege of your sins forgiven-indeed a very personal concern of mine is wondering if many of you are indeed saved. The concept of being born into the fellowship, breaking bread as babies, leaves no occasion for making a personal stand and commitment to Jesus Christ.
I made this commitment myself, as a young lad, giving my heart to the Lord, in the King's Rd, room at a gospel preaching by Bill Mosely. The gospel was preached back then, by R.L ["green ink"] Carter, Willie Dunn, Alec Russell,,and many others, all with the Lord now.
Without any contact with truly born again believers allowed by the heirarchy, where are you going to hear the gospel? The terrible thing is there is very likely a whole generation who has grown up in the PB's actually beliveing they are saved, by reason of being "in the assembly" or "in fellowship" without any realization of what that means. The scriptures plainly state that there will be many people who call themselves christians [but have never made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ and accepted his death on Calvary's cross by faith for their sins] who the Lord will say in a coming day- "depart from me, I never knew you!" The scripture tells us these people will tell the Lord they attended church, and even did works in his name-and even called themselves "christians" but without that all so important personal transaction with our Lord Jesus Christ, will find themselves in a lost eternity.
Much as been said about "returning" and coming back into fellowship" but I tell you, the only fellowship that God recognises is that of the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ, and every blood bought saint is "in fellowship" and no one can take that away from us. I have myself, many years ago, preached the gospel at the Tolmie Ave room in Victoria, BC, long before you were born, and would give anything to go back there and preach the Gospel of Salvation, and the message that forgiveness of sins is only obtained by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, come here as a man, who died and rose again, and lives today in heaven, preparing a place for those who have placed their faith and trust in Him. I cannot do that, so will use this venue to do so, hoping and praying that some of you will read this, search the scriptures for yourselves, be convicted of your own sins, and realise the only hope of salvation is by putting your trust in Our Lord Jesus Christ. I tell you the truth- there is no other way in which you can be saved. Do not be deluded that because you were "born into the assembly" or are "breaking bread" or are "in fellowship" or are in the "right position" you will be saved.
Guest: anon: a friend in Victoria
Guest E-mail: via dwyman@cloudnet.com
Date & Comments: November 7, 2002
Message to: a current EB in Victoria, Canada
Hello, I am interested in hearing from you. I know what you mean about leaving family and friends; it is very difficult. I left some good friends; perhaps your dad was one of them.
Take care, and write again!
Guest: Martyn Ricketts
Guest E-mail: mc@rickos.evesham.net
Date & Comments: November 8, 2002
Just wanted to assure Richard Green (1st November) that I have not received an invitation to return to the "Tayloritte Brethren" and have no intention ever of returning to them if they gave me one but I am unsure as to why he thinks I would do well to accept.
My comments regarding the Brethren and how I am thankful for the influence of godly parents, in no way upholds and approves of the current unscriptual practices and teachings of the "Tayloritte Brethren" or gives any indication I would want to return (who wants to return to a prison when you are free?)
Tim (3rd Nov) made some excellent comments regarding not "throwing out the baby with the bath water". As I have said before, things started to go pear shaped in the 60s (even before) but that does not make all the good stuff bad.
I cannot agree to any of the current unscriptual practices of the "Tayloritte Brethren" but that does not mean I throw out some of the excellent teaching of the early, godly Brethren men.
If Richard checks out his history of the Brethren movement, he will discover many men and women of faith. George Muller for example who built the orphanges in Bristol (England) by faith. Charles Stanley lived by faith preaching the Gospel throughout the UK and many lives came to know Jesus as Lord. These are just two of many who served the Lord with a fire in their hearts to see the lost saved.
My desire is to keep a balance view as possible, at the same time being aware that many are still slaves to the "System" and many families are divided because of it.
Let us not be bound by bitterness against those who have wronged us but let us have the same attitude as the Lord Jesus had when suffering at the hands of those who crucfied Him "Father forgive them for they know not what they do"
God bless
Martyn Ricketts
Guest: withheld for obvious reasons
City, Country: oxon
Date & Comments: November 8, 2002
I currently work for an EB company and have worked for them for more than one year. I am not and never have been EB, and am finding it more difficult by the day to continue to work for them. It is the lies and deceptions, ask an awkward question get a deceptive answer. I can see you all agree with this by what has been written. So far I have only spoken to one of you on the phone, who has been very understanding and helpful, as I am not EB. I did understand his caution and I hope he understood mine.
One thing I must tell you, I have learned today that this site is being monitored by a company for the EBs so do be careful what info you give, maybe that's how they could contact some of you. Freedom is everything k.
Guest: Philippa Davis
Guest E-mail: using a friends comp.
City, Country: Worthing W Sx formally of London
Date & Comments: November 8, 2002
Having left the brethren in the early 70s as a whole family my father David Davis has decided to return. He has been brain washed into believing that he will be able to maintain a relationship with his family. How sad when he finally realises that he has lost us forever. 4 children 7 grandchildren and a multitude of friends. We are devastated to loose our father this way but they have hounded him at his most vulnerable, I would find it easier to grieve him if he had died. My number is 01903 240879 if any one remembers me, I would love to hear from you.
Guest: Stephen
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: November 9, 2002
I received an email from Adrian Joyce's partner in Singapore. It appears his parents have tracked him down I suppose from his resume on this site. A Mr Sangster apparently called in to see him in Singapore [Brethren Member] and the next few days led to what his partner suggested almost a kidnapping of Adrian back to his parents. Is it possible that all of us recalcitrant ex-members might be kidnapped? Or have they reformulated the doctrine of the rapture?
Guest: P J French
Guest E-mail: PJFrench@Celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: November 9, 2002
To STEPHEN
I don't think that they want us back - they were glad to get rid of and see us go - remember?
To ANON-OXON
So they use someone to monitor the site in UK? Interesting - there is reason to believe that out here it is done very close to 'home'. In any event none of us need to feel 'threatened' - we got our freedom from the need to feel that way when we left. We haven't left God, we have removed the distance from God that exclusiveism brought about. I am as sure of that as I am of anything.
TO EB/Peeb SYMPATHISERS
Maybe there was some good at some stage, although when you go back and look at what 'arose' as 'issues' that resulted in enormous loss and heartbreak through the generations, you can be forgiven for wondering if it really was any different apart from being in a different time. Go back as far as the [in]famous J N Darby [depending on the view taken], and you will discover without a great deal of effort, not much difference. I truly believe that he would be the Hales of today were he here today.
RELIGION or CULT?
Some here would find some benefit in considering this issue - as it is an issue. If it is/was a religion, was it Christian, or anti-Christian? If it is not a cult, is it simply coincidental that the major distinguishing characteristics of cults feature in the Darby-Raven-Taylor-Symington-Hales-Hales groupings?
There were clearly those right through who were not of this ilk, but am I the only one who remembers C A Coates, J B Stoney and others, [let alone true men of God in our time who had a definite impact on our lives], who were in effect 'rubbished' behind closed doors for their 'weakness' and about whom it was whispered that it was '...doubtful if they would be with us today...'?
Sadly, the congregation in the main, were and possibly still are 'duped', brainwashed or simply understandably too scared to break ranks. The fear of that threat that the devil will get them, without realising that has happened where they are, stops them taking the first step.
I believe in prayer and pray for the extrication of all those who are genuine believers in Christ and trust in Him. May they truly find the strength to separate from evl ... and such evil.
Guest: BBxx
Guest E-mail: Blackbirdxx@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Berks
Date & Comments: November 9, 2002
Mr Non EB from Oxon drop us a line.
Guest: G H
Guest E-mail: boyzen83@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: November 10, 2002
Dear all
This incident shook me a lot and made me think a lot as well. I always believe the true form of religion (any) should be a selfless act of love to anyone. I personally find it funny that there are peebs getting others monitering this site, checking emails etc. Lets just say I know it is a sin to kill someone, therefore I hire a hitman to kill the person. Am I at fault? Think about this.
I realised that some of the most helpful and selfless people in this world are actually ex-peebs, which led me to realise if this religion/cult is really all that bad after all. I came to this conclusion: all things started good, but things change after the greed of man overrides him. I personally thnk if the peebs can break down that brick wall of theirs and move along with time, they could be very well respected and popular.
After reading Philippa Davis's posting, I no longer find it weird that my partner has left. I don't know what these people use, but they definately have a way to get into someone's mind. They could, no doubt, but they definately can't get into their heart. All things happen for a reason and if you do the right thing, the right thing will follow That's what my partner will say if he faces problems, and it works everytime. I pray for all those who still are ignorant about their lives and wish that those who are back at the church have the strength to decide their path.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: November 10, 2002
Martyn Ricketts (November 8, 2002) describes the Taylorite Brethren’s current practices as “unscriptural”. On the contrary, it is scripture (albeit arguably a perverse reading of it) that the Brethren cite as authority for all their practices. If this were the only issue, then his call to “Forget running the Brethren down” might be valid. However, it is not the only issue.
The Brethren’s practices are objectionable because they are incompatible with Human Rights. If defence of these involves running the Brethren down, then so be it.
Guest: Stephen
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: November 10, 2002
Yes Peter they were glad to see us go.P.B's are a cult, as they centre their beleifs around one person. Now that one person is DEFINITELY not JESUS but a flesh and blood strongman that has repossessed their houses from a lesser evil, as Jesus Himself foretold. Having said that, I do not judge them for that, for Jesus said "they know not what they do".
Guest: Priscilla Martin
City, Country:
Date & Comments: November 10, 2002
Barnet, UK
Have just been contacted to help me find my way back! Glad to have the comfort of the web site and realise that this is for their benefit not ours. I got the impression that they are trying to make amends for the past as they feel the end is near and that they may have been a 'little harsh' on some. Also have heard hat there is a BBC programme, radio or TV I don't know, coming up soon and I think they are trying to make themselves look better.
Was in Barnet and prior to that London Park Street withdrawn from in 1974.
The person who contacted me told me that some have gone back and appear to be taking meetings and generally being publicised to encourage others to work harder to get others back. Needless to say those that have returned are elderly.
Guest: Hannah Hutton
Guest E-mail: hannah.hutton@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Date & Comments: November 10, 2002
) on Sunday, at 08:52:03
What is their criteria for contacting people? I think there is a bit of discrimination going on as no one has contacted me in the last 32+ years since I left in 1970 aged 4!!
Oh well, I won't hold my breath waiting for contact from any of the Bodman family (my father was Dr Ben Bodman) or the Bristol meeting, and they won't be able to persuade me to go back, but will be quite welcome to join me at my local Church of Scotland. Hope that hasn't put them off!
Best wishes to all,
Hannah
Guest: John McAlpin
Guest E-mail: johnm@profilemarketing.com.au
Date & Comments: November 10, 2002
Guest: Mark Watson
Guest E-mail: radar@radarsbluesandgraphics.com
City, Country: Wollongong NSW Australia (ex tahmoor/picton/eastwood eb's)
Date & Comments: November 11, 2002
So the pb's have a company monitoring the site for them. Great stuff. To the person monitoring who reports to Mr Hales, please thank Mr Hales for his dad John Hales, helping out my dad by buying the 3 acres of property next door which enabled my dad to buy his house.
Ironic that it was OK for John Hales to own property which was a very profitable investment. yet when I purchased a property in Tahmoor, I was told by Mr Hales that I had to sell it as we were not allowed to have investments.
And maybe Mr Hales jnr knows why his dad refused to do anything when I spoke to him about the abuse that our family was copping from the local priests, instead the abuse seemed to step up a notch. Yes abuse indeed, repeatedly. It was one of the priests favorite to continue asking me if I masterbated. Then I overheard him asking my dad the same thing. Our family was continually harrased for having "special friendships" for associating too much with another family. Yet it was OK for the priests to have their special friendships. I could write a book on the harrasment received at the hands of Mr Hales and our local priests. The funny thing was that when my father was dying I wanted to get back in fellowship so I could see him, and the priests after hearing my 'confessions' said that I had a hide to want to come back to fellowship after the sins I had committed. ironic that I had only decided to try and get back after I received a visit. That was back in late 70's.
Ironic too, that I had a premonition of my father's passing, and upon ringing a priest to enquire how my dad was, and insisting that I be told, I was told he had passed that day and that if I attempted to attend the 'burial' I would be removed and considered to be trespassing.
And they have a hide to call themselves christians. They can contact me all they like, this fella ain't going within coo-ee of them.
Please pass that info on dear site monitorer.
Guest: Liz Franzen
Guest E-mail: lizfranzen@yahoo.com
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: November 11, 2002
Hello everyone. Please note the new address. Our computer crashed quite a while ago and we are pretty clueless on how to get it going again. It's not fully up and running properly but I have managed to get an email address. Sorry to anyone who tried to contact lately - try again at the new address.
Guest: Wynford Dore
Guest E-mail: wynford@compuserve.com
City, Country: Stratford-on-Avon, England
Date & Comments: November 11, 2002
Great to catch up with some old memories...tho' I have even more fun in my life than 'in the old days' - so I do not live in the past!
Hi to all old friends...I'm immersed in helping get rid of the symptoms of learning difficulties (dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADHD etc) - now also working on autism with exciting prospects of sorting that too. Many will be surprised I'm doing something useful.
Guest: Dave Tomkins
Guest E-mail: tomkinsd@aol.com
City, Country: PERSHORE WORCS UK
Date & Comments: November 12, 2002
Ref Hannah Hutton 10 Nov: The criteria is you have to invite them. My sister decided to contact my brother (the only one still in out of our family after 70) to tell him he should show some concern for our father who [is] getting very infirm (87). He came with his wife and 2 daughters and 1 son (not allowed to attend on his own). He told her only reason he was there was because she had contacted him and he needed to be invited. He obviously translated 'showing some concern' into an invitation. No need to mention the conversation of the meeting, the usual nonsense, he needed to get 'right' etc, etc. The follow up letters have started now. If you get 'right' we can give you practical help etc.
Guest: Hannah Hutton
Guest E-mail: hannah.hutton@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Date & Comments: November 12, 2002
Thanks for that Dave, I guess I won't hear anything then. But at least your sister got some response - I think in the past they would have just ignored any correspondence.
My sister and I visited my grandparents (Dr and Mrs A. P. Bodman) nearly 20 years ago. They were very sweet and invited us into the house for a short time (we were just teenagers at the time so not likely to do any harm!), but another lady from their meeting saw us so they were ex-communicated for a while.
I have no reason now to contact any of the others still in (and they did not get in touch when my father died), but they are often in my thoughts and I wish them well.
Hannah
Guest: Anon (Because of recently being hassled by them)
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: November 13, 2002
Several references recently to the hypocrisy of the Hales Brethren inspired me to list several, of which I have first hand knowledge. Consider these...
I could go on........But I did the sensible thing and left, even though they would consider that THEY withdrew from ME ! You won't find a pig in brown stuff that's happier than me either !
Guest: tennison kalayathinal
City, Country: Codacal P.O.,KERALA-676108., INDIA.
Date & Comments: November 13, 2002
I herd about exclusive brethren from my friend.
Then I would like to study more about it.
thanking you,
tennison.
Guest: A current peeb
City, Country: Victoria Canada
Date & Comments: November 13, 2002
To a friend in Victoria, Can I ask who you are? I would really like to know, however I understand if you don't want to say. Are you youngr or older? Please get back to me ASAP. Thank you!
Guest: Frikkie Klopper
Guest E-mail: grootpiel@ananzi.co.za
City, Country: Pretoria, South Africa
Date & Comments: November 13, 2002
I find this site fascinating. Not allowed cats too! What about dogs? I have been advised that the world isn't flat, but it is 6,000 years old! Not sure about the rest of the universe. And Jesus didn't have a TV. And don't say anything bad about the "holy Spirit", he'll get you in the end!
Guest: Hannah Hutton
Guest E-mail: hannah.hutton@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Fleet, Hampshire
Date & Comments: November 14, 2002
Hi Priscilla, I don't remember your sister Olivia or Chris Nunn, but apparently I went to school with their son Edward. I think he was probably in my class in the first year of infant school, but I don't remember him after that.
Hannah
Guest: current peeb
City, Country: held
Date & Comments: November 14, 2002
dick wyman: how childish. how immature. i can't believe someone who once had the priviledge of actually being brethren can even have the nerve to write such things it is so blatenly ovbious that you are a victim of complete envy and jealously. i trust you will simply GROW UP, and get on with your life. if you want to leave, do so... but continuing to have all these issues about the brethren is proof that you can't actually just forget about them. it's proof that you just can't leave them alone. it's proof that you are a discusting, evil person.
Guest: Brother Francis CCN
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: San Diego, California
Date & Comments: November 14, 2002
I am writing to say "Amen!" to Martyn Ricketts' post in which he advocates eschewing bitterness and instead cultivating *forgiveness*. This is right on target. The requirement that we *forgive* those who injure us is central in the Christian walk according to scripture. Personally my way to seek to forgive the peebs is by whispering their name during "Prayers of the People" in the Anglican liturgy of the Mass. Sometimes I light a candle at the Shrine of Our Lady and call on our Heavenly Father to give to the peebs the blessing which we give voice to in the Prayer for the Church in the Book of Common Prayer: "Where she is right, strengthen her; where she is in error, correct her," and so on -- read the whole prayer; IMHO it's very beautiful and to say it aloud surely puts one in a forgiving frame of mind. .. ..
Guest: Oliver Bedford
City, Country: Sydney
Date & Comments: November 15, 2002
It is nice to see "current peeb" (14 November) breaking the rules by using a computer. No wonder he feels the need to be anonymous. His specially tailored peeb education obviously hasn't taught him how to spell; but clearly he has learned from his superiors how to be abusive, which even a cursory reading of the New Testament would show him is not a Christian character trait.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend, England
Date & Comments: November 15, 2002
to Current Peeb 14 Nov
You say Dick has not forgotten the peebs - so why should he? I've forgiven them, but I have no intention of forgetting. Then you go on to make a typical peebish wild assertion, unsupported by any kind of evidence or logic '...it's proof that you are a discusting evil person'. That's just proof that your spelling isn't too special!
cheer up you silly sod
luv Gerard
Guest: Darren Hughes
Guest E-mail: Darren.hughes@orange.co.uk
City, Country: Saul, Glos - Formerly Calne
Date & Comments: November 15, 2002
Hannah, Priscilla
If you know the Nunns then you may know my sister Melanie who married James. Unfortuneately still 'in' and therefore I have no contact with her.
Guest: Also a Current Peeb
City, Country: Eastwood (home of the Elect Vessel), NSW, Australia
Date & Comments: November 15, 2002
Dear Current Peeb of 14 November.
I am also a current peeb and check this site regularly.
Please learn to spell otherwise the whole world will believe that all us peebs are extremely thick and that a home education has its limitations.
Also your attack on Dick Wyman is baseless. If we peebs are proud of what we believe, who we are, and the fact that as James Symmington said "we have nothing to hide," we should be happy that this site exists and encourages people to talk about our wonderful closed society and that a spotlight is shone upon us.
We don't want people to think that we are not free to think for ourselves do we? that we can't think for ourselves?, that we do not tolerate free speech?, or heaven forbid that we, as a group, exhibit all the characteristics of a cult?
Current Peeb, please think carefully before you use a keyboard again. Also, in case you are not familiar, the computer programs include a spellchecker; try it next time.
See you in church.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: November 15, 2002
Before I suggest the entry by "current peeb" is simply that of a rather juvenile person, who lacks empathy for all the suffering and agony that still goes on as a result of the self serving PB agenda, I have to admit I used to have the same attitude when I was "in".
I remember thinking [and acting] the same way- this was "our" fellowship, and if anybody disagreed, then leave- simple as that. I gave no thought of the separated families, the marriages broken up, the mothers and fathers who would never see or speak to their children again, the children who would never see their parents again, brother against brother, sister against sister, the grandchildren who would never know their grandparents, the grandparents who would never know their grandchildren, the only contact being made after a death in the family, no chance to even say goodbye. Separation from evil is right, and scriptural, but we were separating from believers, holding ourselves up in pride and arrogance. We despised the work of God in other believers, and therein lies the greater sin, for we put ourselves up against God, and in doing so, missrepresented the gospel.
I remember deliberately walking in front of a brother, standing a little off to one side at the grave as we buried his grandfather, and never even so much as recognising him. After all, "we" were the "church" and he had chosen to leave.... Yes, I remember.....and trust I will never act that way again, to anybody.
Guest: A Friend In Victoria
City, Country: Victoria, BC Canada
Date & Comments: November 15, 2002
To: A Current PEEB In Victoria
Hello, I can understand your curiosity about me; I am I am curious about you too. However, using the guestbook to communicate freely might not be the best thing for you and I. Will you communicate with me privately? That can be arranged.
Let me know. Your Friend in Victoria.
Guest: A. Trustee
Guest E-mail: Trustee@Ntlworld.com
City, Country: The Real World.
Date & Comments: November 15, 2002
This goes out to the Current Bun...oops Peeb, sorry. I'm surprised how many God fearing people (Peebs) take an interest in this site. As you know peebs trust nobody, not even their own, they always need Proof. I am a non believer. I don't believe in the Devil yet Peebs do, does that make me Evil? Keep up the good work dick you have helped many. As for the Current Bun not the brightest crayon in the box, are we ?
Guest: A current non-peeb
Date & Comments: November 16, 2002
To a current peeb (NOV 14): How childish. How immature. I can't believe someone who is still in the dark of actually being brethren can even have the nerve to write such things. It is so blatenly obvious that you are a victim of complete lies and scams. I trust you will simply GROW UP, and open wide your eyes. If you want to GROW UP, please think... but continuing to be trapped in their lies is a fact that you are their victim. It's proof that you have totally sold your soul without knowing the truth. On the other hand, you are not very brethren yourself using a computer. It's proof that rules of the brethren are merely tailored for their advantage.
I pray that you will see the truth and proof we have soon.
Guest: Hazel
Guest E-mail: withheld-sorry
City, Country: Herts UK
Date & Comments: November 16, 2002
to the current Brethren (nov 14th)
I am not an ex Brethren but I am in an exteemly loving and happy relationship with one and I would just like to ask a couple of questions which no one else can answer.
Why are ex Brethren being contacted to return?
What are you told is the reasoning behind it?
Why would you want these "ungodly" and "evil" people back?
Why are there several different types of approach? Not all ex's are being treated the same.
You see I just don't understand - after all "my" God would not want to cause the pain that has and is being caused by the bullying tactics that are being employed. He would allow families to speak with each other without constraint. He would not try to tear families apart.
I have seen and heard what goes on when you "visit" and I deal with the upset that it causes. You didn't want these people who you threw out or who left so please leave them alone.
Guest: Mark 'radar' Watson (Wollongong NSW Aust) ex Eastwood/Picton/Tahmoor ('58 - '76)
Guest E-mail: radar@radarsbluesandgraphics.com
City, Country: Wollongong NSW Aust (ex Eastwood/Picton/Tahmoor peebs '58 - '76)
Date & Comments: November 16, 2002
ahha, a current peeb in Eastwood where I spent my first 13 years or so in the peebs.
I don't really find it amazing that they get on their high christian horses and then hypocritically break all the rules, such as getting on a computer and visiting here. Back in my time just about every third person was doing something behind the cult's back.. yes even some of the leaders.
I say it is good that the current peebs pop in here and leave a message or two. It will serve two purposes. 1/ They may realise what a hypocritical bubble they are living in and find freedom. or 2/ They will continue to show the rest of the world who visit here, the proof of what narrow minded, hypocritical and uneducated bunch of family busters they really are. But in reality, most of them in the peebs simply have never known any other life than what they were born into and been brainwashed with. I know as I was once one of them.
Apologies to those who have sent emails direct, I haven't had a chance to respond to all yet.
cheers
Radar (oops... known as Mark Watson)
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
City, Country: Melbourne Australia
Date & Comments: November 17, 2002
Not only do Plymouth Brethren lie to the Goverment to avoid rates and taxes, they cover up the behaviour of sexual deviants and paedophiles in their ranks. They are too scared for a scandal to hit the press. My cousin was molested sexually by his uncle in P.B.'s but they covered it up, including his father. Now imagine how my cousin felt when he was soon confronted with his uncle who had been kept out of fellowship over this offence and other offences. No wonder his life ended up a litany of divorces and even jail. This man [Plymouth Brethren Brother] was a caretaker would you beleive in a large Primary school in Ballarat. He tried to molest me but failed even though he used physical force. Dare to suggest their precious leader is an adulterer, even though you have a sworn statement from 12 credible witnesses of highest repute, you are withdrawn from forever and personally abused without a trial. It is obvious that Plymouth Brethren have degenerated into a cult who worship whatever set of beleifs and mental idols their leader creates, claiming of course he is inspired of God like the Pope.
Guest: nonnie
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: November 17, 2002
Surely the "current peeb still in" 's entry is tongue in cheek? I don't believe the person who wrote that entry is still in for one minute. Recognise it for what it is...having a go at what the peebs stand for in a humerous way and having a good giggle at everyone's expense...?
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: November 18, 2002
I failed to omit in the above this particular member of P.B.'s was let back into fellowship after only weeks of being out. So you see moral weaknesses, even of the worse kind are lightly treated by this lot. Even further in their desire to cover up for their so-called testimony to the world, they commit a crime collectively. Their so-called priests by not revealing these crimes to the police are GUILTY by being an accessory to the same crimes of paedophilia. The only real crime in their books, is to CHALLENGE THEIR AUTHORITY. Indeed their Leader has far more temporal power than any Pope could ever dream of.
Guest: David Sharples
Guest E-mail: dgs32@ozemail.com.au
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: November 18, 2002
What I consider to be one of the great wrongs the Peebs practice is their negative attitude and criticism of all the Lord’s believers and servants outside their own system. It is extremely unfortunate that this is hammered into all the young who are borne into the system, which would be almost all of them, as little or no outsiders ever join them. Therefore they strongly believe, from as far back as they can remember, that all Christians outside themselves are not fit to be associated with. For any of them to attend an outside Christian church service of any kind could mean expulsion and loss of all family contact, which is part of the expulsion or ex-communication process. Since leaving the peebs I have had contact with many wonderful Christian people who serve and praise the Lord tirelessly, they can only be admired for their tireless enthusiasm in their service and the work they do. They are truly God’s servants. Some of these people I have had contact with were converted at the Billy Graham crusade some 40 years ago. When I was a peeb I can distinctly remember their scathing attacks on the crusade and Billy Graham’s preaching, claiming he was “of the devil” and anyone of their members caught attending such preachings would be severely dealt with. In another statement they claimed “Those who were supposedly converted at the crusade would have no depth, therefore it would only last a few weeks.” How wrong they were as history has shown. See Matthew 18:20.
Apart from the peebs the other groups who strongly criticized Billy Graham and the crusade were the atheists, unbelievers, agonistics, people who worshiped other gods, and the devil. All other Christian groups gave their support.
Guest: Robert and Margaret Pearse
Guest E-mail: r.pearse@virgin.net
City, Country: CRICH, Matlock, Derbyshire, ENGLAND
Date & Comments: November 18, 2002
at 10:42:37
Please note we have moved to Derbyshire. We wanted a smaller property with less garden and also to be closer to our daughter, son in law and grandchildren. Our new address is 'Arisaig', 2 Amber Hill, CRICH. Matlock, Derbyshire DE4 5BZ and tel. 01773 856996
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: November 18, 2002
“Also a Current Peeb” (November 15, 2002) is surely a spoof, writing with heavy irony. If he were genuine, then he would disclose his identity. He could do so without fear because, as he says, the Brethren tolerate free speech.
Guest: D
Guest E-mail: via dwyman@cloudnet.com
City, Country: Baltimore USA
Date & Comments: November 18, 2002
To Anyone Who has any information:
I have married into a family that has many members in and out of this cult/group. My husband has been out for about 20 years. I have been very curious about practices and information involving the families located on the East Coast. (particularly New Jersey and Baltimore MD areas) My husband does share information where he himself is concerned, but recently, his brother has taken his own life and it has been said that it was largely due to the traumatic childhood and early adulthood in this cult. I have been told that he was contacted by members to try and get him to come back and it could be assumed that it helped push him over the edge. However, I do not wish to specifically blame anyone. I was very concerned about my brother-in-law before it happened and I want to try to find out a few things where his abuse is concerned. Suicide leaves those of us left behind with a terrible loss and confusion and that person's skeletons hanging in our own closets. I know what I might find out will never bring him back but I can't help wanting more information.
Thank You
Guest: Keith Taylor
Guest E-mail: servicemasternorthyork@sympatico.ca
City, Country: Markham, Ontario, Canada
Date & Comments: November 19, 2002
My wife and I had the pleasure of hearing Robin Mark in concert, at Queensway Cathedral in Toronto, Sunday night past. (For those who don't know, Robin is a Christian singer/songwriter from Belfast, N. Ireland.) Between songs he would pray, talk, joke etc. He poked fun at a few denominations including the EB's(nothing distasteful or mean). Now most Christians in N.America have never even heard of the Exclusives. I guess they have a higher profile in the U.K? Anyway, even after 20 years gone, it was nice to have a good laugh at myself.
Guest: Cam Elkins
Guest E-mail: mrelks@hotmail.com
City, Country: London
Date & Comments: November 19, 2002
Some of you know we have been planning to travel for some time now. At last I have kicked in my career in favour of seeing some new places and spending quality time with my g/f. On our way through Australia (Jan-April), NZ (May) & USA (Jun-Jul) if any one wants to meet up for a drink or two just drop me a line and we'll see what we can arrange!
Guest: Glenda Kilroe
Guest E-mail: santonika@hotmail.com
City, Country: Calgary, Alberta Canada
Date & Comments: November 19, 2002
To: "MY FAMILY MEMBER"
I am so glad you wrote a reply, I'm not quite sure who you are though. Grandma's death was very upsetting. I am so greatful that I had the chance to spend time with her and got to know her a bit before she passed away. I have been to see Grandpa a couple of times, but not much lately. I keep meaning to. We were all so happy to receive the anouncement of Liam's arrival. He's looks so cute, I bet he'll be just as beautiful as his mother :-) If you have access to e-mail I would love to hear from you. Don't worry I won't mention to Grandpa (or anyone else) about contacting me. I wouldn't want to lose the chance to get to know you. I hope to see another reply! Love, Glenda
Guest: A Current peeb
City, Country: Canada
Date & Comments: November 19, 2002
Holy Cow! what did I do to "piss" so many people off? Iam not a wicked and evil person. Iam nice, I did'nt say anything against Dick Whyman. Any how I guess I really should'nt be on here but it is very addicting
P.S Sorry if I said anything offenceive!
Guest: John McMullan
Guest E-mail: dove@oberon.ark.com
City, Country: Quadra Island, BC, Canada
Date & Comments: November 19, 2002
I have been reading many of the recent entries and I sense a lot of hurt among those who have suffered in EB. Most of my family are still in, in Ireland and England, and I have had no contact with them for over 40 years. I would dearly love to tell them about My Lord Jesus who set me free from my sin and provides me with such joy in serving Him. His invitation is still, "Come unto me all ye who are heavy laden and I will give you rest" We can only find rest in Him. If you need encouragement feel free to contact me as one of his many ambassadors. We all need to remember Phipp 3;13 and forget what is behind and press on..."
Guest: Tasmanian Ex Peeb
City, Country: Tasmania
Date & Comments: November 19, 2002
Dear Current Peeb,
There are a few points that need to be pointed out to you.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: November 20, 2002
To Current Peeb, Canada, Nov 19.
I think there is some confusion here. The "current peeb" (if indeed he/she is) whose comments caused all the fuss was the one from no known country whose email of Nov 14 lambasted Dick Wyman and called him disgusting. It seems to me that it wasn't you. So stop worrying about the replies !
Guest: Priscilla
Date & Comments: November 20, 2002
I am very sorry that the message re anons came on the end of a message for someone else.
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: johnweightman@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
Date & Comments: November 20, 2002
To the still-in of Canada
I don't wish to be pedantic or petty but I wonder if you are going out of your way to make as many spelling and grammar mistakes as possible in the fewest number of words. Are you trying to make a point that lack of education is good?
To any who think that the new -or possibly interim- management is really more benign, just remember that any measure of freedom now being enjoyed is only to order.
Best wishes to all
John
Guest: Withheld (current glanton - peeb)
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: November 20, 2002
To current peeb from Canada,
I can't believe you are disgracing yourself and the Lord's People by swearing publicly on this guestbook, you should hang your head in shame and leave, I dont believe you are genuine for one moment.
There is such a lot of bitterness and hurt shown on this site, but please don't ever lose sight of the fact that the Lord is coming again, and how awful not to be right with Him when He returns. I appeal to each to make sure they are right with the Lord in these last and closing moments, whether "in" or "out", what matters is a relationship based on Christ's work at Calvary. A concerned Brother
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend, England
Date & Comments: November 20, 2002
to Also a Current Peeb
Really enjoyed your upbeat remarks [Nov 15], it's nice to see someone's got a sense of humour.
You could be in trouble tho with '..we peebs are proud of...who we are'. When I was a member of your cult there were two scriptures in the bible [JND translation] saying 'God sets himself against the proud' [James 4:6 and 1Peter 5:5]. So have you deleted those scriptures now? or are the spin doctors still working on it? C'mon now you guys have plenty of imagination, I've always thought you could come up with an answer/b******t explanation for just about anything.
Be great to meet sometime, I'd love to buy you a drink.
Guest: margo
Guest E-mail: brown_eyes_38@hotmail.com
City, Country: Canada
Date & Comments: November 20, 2002
I read this site often and sometimes I don't agree with everything said on this site but I keep coming back :).
I think I should enter my two cents but don 't. It is a great place to find old friends. What I wish to say is lighten up about the spelling your roots are showing (critical and being judgemental). Some people are just not great at spelling it could even be a second language to them. I actually think this is a young person so be gentle. What did you understand as a young person of the pain and suffering of others?
Sorry if I offended any one with my two cents. Keeping praying
Love Margo
Guest: J
Date & Comments: November 20, 2002
It's really funny how many peebs out there are using the computer, sending emails in the wee hours of the night. I actually correspond with a few peebs via email (hows that!).
I have seen people (usually the younger generation) running in and out of the church and I wonder if we should pity them. To some, they return due to reasons we all know, to others, they treat the church like a shelter. 'I'll go back when I'm broke and sneak out again' I should say this could be a lack of support for those who leave. For one, there hasn't been a well-established organisation to help these poor souls out and reprogramme them for our society, second, a lot of the younger peebs leave alone. Maybe someone should start a support group for people who wishes to leave. I have no doubt this cult will not stand as firmly as before. The world is moving too fast for them and it is too enticing for the young ones to check us out. As more and more peebs leave the church, the truth will slowly surface and all it takes is just time for them to explode. I definately can't wait for the day when families can reunite and equality and love to be realised by these people.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: November 21, 2002
I think we are taking the entry of''current peeb'' too seriously, in all likelyhood it is a young person, and it is pretty common knowlege they use the excuse of''going to the library'' to use the computers available for public use to stay in touch with each other.And why shouldn't they?Obviously they have stumbled on this website and since it represents''forbidden fruit''they log on.
We should look at it this way- most of them have been fed a steady diet of how''evil'' we are[ everybody who leaves the pb's is deemed''evil''] and by reading the entries here they may get a chance to understand what they have been born into,and see for themselves what other folks have experienced and think.By reading these entries they will see what devastation the heirarchy have wrought on families,the separation from loved ones,and all the heartache. Maybe they will come to understand what real christianity is, and to search the scriptures for themselves.If they do, they will see the stark contrast with what they have experianced and been told.Hopefully they will begin to ask questions and demand answears, and not be put off with intimidation or threats.Hopefully they will become excercised to have a real and personel relationship with Jesus Christ.Once they do, their leaders will never hold them down, or stamp it out.The Pharisees tried that 2000 years ago, and the pharisees of christendom will have the same experiance-they cannot stand in the way of the Spirit of God
Let them stay,and let's treat them gently. We were there once, and we represent the very few people who can understand where they are coming from.Keep the door open.
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: johnweightman@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
Date & Comments: November 21, 2002
I assume that Margo is referring to my recent posting made in reply to a current peeb of Canada.
Firstly, I was assuming that this current peeb was the one who in an earlier entry described their country as "held." ( If I am wrong, I apologise.) I understand that if they are still in they will feel the need to remain anonymous, although this does not square with the freedom they claim to have. Secondly, the real object of my entry was not so much the faulty spelling as the unpleasantness of the content. I should have made that clear and regret that I resorted to sarcasm. I think, however, that there are many of us who, whilst hoping and praying that reading the vast majority of entries on this site will open the eyes of any still-in EB's, really fear that they- the "still-ins" -are largely really merely voyeurs, who still can and do cause the deepest grief and heartache to the thousands whose lives have been blighted by their connections with EB's. To the very true point made that I,too, was once as guilty as they, I close with the same line as my friend Victor Congdon -hope you don't mind, Vic- Only by grace
My best wishes to all,
John
Guest: Russ McDonald
Guest E-mail: Russ.mcdonald@gems2.gov.bc.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC Canada
Date & Comments: November 21, 2002
I would like to echo Oliver's Nov. 20 comments regarding some confusion, and Margo's Nov. 20 comments regarding being critical and judgemental:
To current peeb, Canada - no, you are not a wicked or evil person; please don't go away. Stay and let us know how it is going for you. There are many of us that care about you and understand how it is.
Margo, your "two-cents" worth has much value. This site is a great place to meet old friends, and to make new ones too. Yes, gentleness and kindness is the way to go. No, I was not offended by your remarks, I think they model a caring perspective.
To Guest J: Yes I think we should feel for those people that are pushed and pulled by the doctrine of their group. And yes I think a support group is a wonderful idea. I know for a fact that there are individuals that help as much as they can; there are the people of the "EB Railroad" (at this site) and others too that are involved privately. Could we do more? I hope we can... Are there others with ideas and resources?
Regards, Russ
Guest: B.S
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: November 22, 2002
Sorry I cannot give credit where credit is due, but hope whoever wrote the following helpful poem on the subject of spelling does not object to me passing it on. It uses English (British) spelling!
Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.
Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh
As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore too long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong
Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore yore pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.
Slightly more seriously - lets drop the criticism and not discourage those who may have difficulty with spelling (for whatever reason including dislexia) from expressing themselves here. We need to hear from you.
Guest: I am in the Exclusives in Nambour, Australia
City, Country: Nambour / Woombye, Australia
Date & Comments: November 23, 2002
What an idiot Hales is!
There is so many of us using Computers, watching T.V, our family is in the Exclusives in Woombye, Australia and we own a T.V. We hide it very very well and put our antenna in the ceiling instead of outside. We know of many many other families still in who have Television's and radio's. My parents bought our first CD Stero player last week, purchased by our very secretative neighbours. Hales just does'nt get it, he can't control everyone. Half the Church is running wild and there is nothing he can do about it! To the company monitoring this site for Hales, you obviousley have'nt been in a CULT before! I will be continuously leaking information to Dick on inside affairs in the Exclusive Church. To the person who is after there partner dragged back into the Exclusives who is from BEACONSFIELD / BERWICK VICTORIA, contact A Current Affair News in Australia. They will most likely investigate the Exclusives for you. The Exclusives will hate the media attention and might cave in to you. Worth a try, their web address is, www.ninemsn.com.au/aca
To all the members still in on this site See you in Church. And see you in December Mr Hales.
Guest: Rachel Waddilove
Guest E-mail: rmwaddi@yahoo.co.uk
City, Country: Exeter, Devon. U.K.
Date & Comments: November 23, 2002
I was bought up with the exclusive brethren, my parents left in 1961. My mother was a Diplock and My Father is Donald Lynes. I live near Exeter and would be delighted to help anyone in the west country who has left the brethren and is wanting help and friendship.
Guest: Withheld
Guest E-mail: dmacfd@sympatico.ca
City, Country: Barrie. Ontario Canada
Date & Comments: November 23, 2002
I am a born again Christian who gathers to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. However I have many family relatives who are exclusive in their doctrine, known as the Taylor party. They are very legal in their views so much so that they seldom manifest the life of Christ in their lives. They are known to be drunk, they buy whiskey at the local store and are known for their consummstion of strong drink. They will not even speak to me if I meet them in the mall and will not even stop to join me in a cup of coffee. One of their leaders was James Taylor known to one of my near friends. Mr Taylor was found at one time in bed with another lady and as far as known went straight to hell when he died.
Guest: Sydney A. Ward Jnr.
Guest E-mail: sidco45@hotmail.com
City, Country: 5 Church Street, Montego Bay, Jamaica, W.I.
Date & Comments: November 23, 2002
Guest: Paul G Ward
Guest E-mail: paulgward@compuserve.com
City, Country: Portsmouth, England
Date & Comments: November 24, 2002
Former locality: Portsmouth, England
When left: 1971
Now living in New York, although frequently visiting my parents, Mervyn and Joy Ward who left in 1976 and still live in the house in which I grew up.
Guest: Current EB
City, Country: Western NSW
Date & Comments: November 25, 2002
This is an awesome site. I have been following it for some time now.
I would love to leave this CULT but feel I need more support than what I have got at the moment.
What current EB from Nambour says is very true. The church is totally divided at the moment.
Hales will never have any control over my life nor will any CULT.
Keep up the great work Dick.
Guest: nonnie
Date & Comments: November 25, 2002
Many years ago I lived in Nambour and was always amazed at the drabness of dress and the long faces of the women with the scarves on. I wondered and felt so sorry for them. I am therefore equally amazed to read the entry from the still in exclusive from Woombye. These people were so conservative then, and now they are hiding TV's and aerials in their house. Sorry, but you are still controlled by the man you call an idiot. The Bible teaches that Control and the spirit of intimidation (and rebellion) are witchcraft, so my advise to you is, don't be intimidated and controlled, but if you want to get a TV, DVD,Stereo or computer, go buy your own, and hold your head high, knowing these things are not sinful, but only tools to be used wisely and enjoyed. How can you freely enjoy these things in your own home while all the time someone has to listen for a knock on the door, so that you won't be found out? I can't understand if you hate the system that much that you keep going to the meetings, and at the same time undermine them by telling on them. I am not an EB and never have been (but am surrounded by them every day)so totally sympathise with all you people have to endure and do without, but there is a way out if you have the courage. Take on the words that were spoken to Joshua..Be bold, and of a good courage, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.
Guest: Marty Lewis
Guest E-mail: martythelewis@hotmail.com
City, Country: London, Ontario, Can
Date & Comments: November 25, 2002
Hi all, obviously, a lot of people still in fellowship check out this site; so this is for you. I left about 7 years ago, I'm 22 now and the Lord has brought me a long way. Happy? I realize now I didn't even know what happiness was!! The freedom to live a life according to God's Word and His plan, and having Christ as the ONLY mediator between God and myself - instead of a mere man - is such a beautiful thing! Getting up and leaving I know is a huge mountain to climb, but God will see you through. Why waste your whole life accomplishing nothing for the Kingdom of God?! What they say is not true; turning to 'worldy ways' is not the only other option to being in the Peebs. Please, please, please e-mail me. Even if you must remain anonymous. In Christ, Marty
Guest: J
Guest E-mail: peebsaver@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: November 26, 2002
To Russ: I am in fact working on a support plan here. Will be implementing it once I return to Australia and get my funding. Things I feel most important will have to be emotional and financial support for these people. I plan to build a home for mainly orphans with govt fundings but also discreetly housing runaway peebs. We need the support of the govt otherwise it will be a pain with the peebs knocking on our door everyday. An idea I have is to expand my business in my current location and hire runaways to work here so the peebs cannot track them down. I hope God helps me with this as it will cost a lot of money.
To the peeb in Nambour: As I said earlier, the world is moving too fast for them and I believe everything's turned a blind eye at the moment with the hope that more ex-peebs will return with the 'relaxed' rules. The peeb I have been corresponding via email with gets permission from her parents to use the internet in hope that she will stay at home. These people will do anything to keep people from running away.
To a current peeb (Western NSW): If you feel you require more support, email me or people from the EB Railroad. There are plenty of people in Western NSW who can help you although please be cautious when exchanging information.
To all: I just received a piece of shocking news on the tactics the peebs are using to get people back now. I can't disclose them at the moment but please be on guard. To those who have received calls from the peebs, I urge you to be strong and firm with your decisions and treasure the life you have. It totally disgusted me to know what these people have in their sleeves.
Guest: Nonnie - From November 25th
City, Country: Woombye, Nambour Australia
Date & Comments: November 26, 2002
To the Nonnie author of November 25th,
You tell me to be proud and hold my head high now that I have a T.V, AND if I hate the Church that much, why do I keep going to the meetings. Well it is so obvious that you have not been a member of the Exclusives. If the shoe was on the other foot would you give up your entire family? Our family has plans in leaving the cult but we are all doing it together. It is very easy for people to say do this and do that, when they haven't even been in the Exclusives at all. Fair enough they might know people in it, but that is totally different than being in it!!!
Guest: Laurie Twinam
Guest E-mail: Laurie@twinam.fsnet.co.uk
City, Country: Sevenoaks, Kent, UK
Date & Comments: November 26, 2002
Just a few words of advice from one who was once in the Taylor brethren and is very much concerned for those visiting this site who are still caught up in that set-up, where they were born and bred.
It is a great mercy from God when you first realise without a doubt that you are trapped in a regime which is now only a shadow and a sham of real Christianity. You are being cheated and deprived of the real thing. So-called leaders have now taken the place which belongs to Jesus Christ alone.
Jesus is not just a figure in history, but the greatest Man alive. Not only is He is very much alive - He is the great Redeemer and Liberator. If you depend only on Him, He will become the very centre of your life, and He will set you free from all sin, and from all the distortions and hindrances which have deceived and bound you hitherto. A true Christian is no longer a slave. He will give you courage to speak up for the honour of Jesus Christ, and He will lead you out from all that dishonours Him. If you are thrown out for your witness, you will find yourself in His company – what better?
If I can help you in any way, please make contact.
Guest: James Smith
Guest E-mail: smithy1900@hotmail.com
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: November 27, 2002
I used to work with the Exclusives and found them really interesting and had some really good conversations with them....I would like to know some of the reasons behind their beliefs....can anyone please give me a list or something? Thank you.
James.
Guest: nonnie
Date & Comments: November 27, 2002
Dear Peeb still in Nambour,
I apologise if I offended you by my words. I did not say for you to be proud [that terrible word! :)] and I do have some idea about cults, as 2 of my family members were in cults for years, and it took years for them to leave with heartache for them and the rest of our family for years. Also when I said I am surrounded by EB's this is literally so as I am employed by them. I hear, and I see...past the veneer. They are good people, but bound by a set of very stupid rules, that stifle their emotions towards each other and outsiders. I do feel very much for you, and it would be terrible to have to leave your friends and family and never see them again. This in itself is a bondage, because that which you can't have you want all the more. Many non EB's move away from family and friends and may only see them once in many years, but because they are free to see or not see them there is not as much heart ache as when it is forbidden. We all need freedom of choice, and I hope and pray you and your family will soon be able to see your way clear to make that very big step to freedom. I do not sit in judgement of you, be assured of that. God bless you and I know many are praying for you.
Guest: J (Peeb Saver)
Date & Comments: November 27, 2002
To Nonnie and all: Absolutely no one can understand and feel how this cult works unless you are in it yourself. For outsiders, they can only see the physical posession the EBs have on its people. For us, it is a physical+emotional+mental posession. It is a control over your total mind and to break free will take a really strong mind to do so, not to say months of plannings. By the way, their rules are not in anyway 'stupid'. In fact they are one of the smartest systems around that is so well catered to totally control one. There is a reason behind all their rules and if you look at it from an un-religious point of view, you will see it. They merely used God's words as the sheep's skin. How else can these people become so financially powerful and are capable of ruining people's life without paying a price.
To James: A lot of people find the EBs interesting conversationalist. It is no surprise because you are talking to someone from 'another world'. A very bad analogy I can come up with (I apologise but I can't think of any good ones) will be if you visit an African Tribe in the Amazon and if you understand their language, you will find it interesting talking to them. This is exactly the case. To you, they might seem sincere in talking to you but it is always good to know that in their eyes, you are just a 'worldly' person.
Guest: J
Guest E-mail: peebsaver@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: November 27, 2002
To Dick and all: Would it be a good idea to start a chatroom here? In my experience time plays a crucial part and emails might take some time before a respond is received. A chatroom will be a good place to get instant advice especially for current peebs who rarely have a chance to check their mail. To protect the room, members can be registered with their background verified (just like in the eb railroad) and non-members can sign on as 'Guest'. I personally leave this website on whenever I am on the internet and check for updates all the time and I believe a lot of people a lot of people are doing it too. Hope this is a good suggestion.
Guest: Cindel
City, Country: Seattle, WA
Date & Comments: November 27, 2002
I surfed onto a great cult information and help page called myownmind.com - it is really cool. You should check it out. If you have a story, they will help you share it with the world by posting it on their site.
http://www.MyOwnmind.com
Enjoy.
Let them know you visited and what you think of their site and their EB information.
Guest: JT
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: November 27, 2002
I teach an exclusive brethren child in my class. I am concerned about his exclusion from class activities, eg music assembly IT etc. Any ideas how we can stop him feeling so left out?
Guest: B&E
Guest E-mail: bbhenson1@optusnet.com.au
City, Country: Ipswich, Australia.
Date & Comments: November 27, 2002
To the "Still Ins" Nambour & West N.S.W.
Hi There!
Would love to hear from you. You will know us. Could even be related! Mobile No. 0414 802 754. or use the internet address. We are walking with the Lord & appreciate your feelings. We left Brisbane 16 years ago. Love you in Christ, B&E.
Guest: Robert Narboe
Guest E-mail: bnarboe@aol.com
City, Country: Germany
Date & Comments: November 28, 2002
My name is Bob Narboe retired military U:S: army living in Germany. I have a saved German wife and we meet in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you for your site, we are new to the brethren we have been meeting at home for two years now, Mat 18:20. God Bless you, Gal 5:1 AV 1611 sinners saved by Grace. If any one would care to write we would be bless. Brother Bob
Guest: Bruised Hells
Date & Comments: November 28, 2002
I am glad I am not from this cult although I pity those people in it. As an outsider, it is so darn obvious to me what this is all about. This is merely one man trying to act god. It is the pyramid selling of religion. Just another very successful religious scam.
http://www.cultcounselling.org has a list of definitions of cults and this 'church group' fits all the bill. If God is truly all compassionate and Jesus is our saviour, HE will save as much people as HE can (the majority). Why do they think they are so special and 'exclusive'. Its sad that these people are more willing to trust one man than the world.
Just a word to any Brethrens looking here. GOD made all man fair and equal. There is no such thing as an 'elected vessel'. Even the pope achieved his status through grace and compassion. It takes hard work, sacrifice, and utmost compassion and devotion to become a spiritual person, not just merely 'elected' by your own father or other humans. And all man sin, there is no one who is 'unable to sin'! An action of sin is sin! What nonsense is 'That was an ambush' , 'He is unable to sin', 'He is pure'. So having a naked wife of another man under the blanket is not sin and is a pure act and is seen as a pure act of GOD?!?! So what sort of ambush was that? If it was an ambush, well then he accepted the ambush and thus sinned. I personally feel that is just so RUDE and DOWNGRADING for JESUS CHRIST.
Guest: Ngaire Thomas
Guest E-mail: Ngaire-Maz@xtra.co.nz
City, Country: Palmerston North New Zealand
Date & Comments: November 28, 2002
When faced with the prospect of a visit from my natural brother accompanied by another Brother, I was surprised to find that I had a reoccurrence of that dreadful feeling of fear, intimidation and trepidation. I would have thought that after 28 years I could handle a situation like this with the strength, confidence, and ease which is now part of my life. But No, I felt a knot in the pit of my stomach and trembled at the thought of being 'interigated' once again, even if they were coming to say they were sorry. I asked myself why they were making this visit and realised that there was very little in it for me and lots of warm fuzzies for them. I decided to write and tell them not to come. I would dearly love to turn the tables and tell my brother that with all his musical and artistic talents there is a place for him on the outside.
Guest: Tim Mounter
Guest E-mail: timmounter(hotmail)
City, Country: Peterborough U.K. - Class of 85
Date & Comments: November 29, 2002
It's been a good couple of years since I last signed in here, myself and 2 of my (blood) brothers have just received our seperate summonses for the re-enrollment program, each from someone with a particular history with ourselves - a letter from my ex-boss for me, a phone call from a (brethren) brother who 'looked after' my brother David while my parents were 'shut up' and a phone call to my brother John also from one of the lads (now grown up and presumably fully fledged priest) from a family where he lived at the same time. It is very satisfying to know that this guest book is here to put us in the picture of what is going on. However, good as my bible training was, I've forgotten where certain things are and I need the help of others in here in preparation for my big meeting day. I plan to bring out my black bible from the attic with gold embossed T.I.M. on it and quote that bit they read at weddings, something like 'what God hath put together let no man put asunder' It must be in there somewhere. Then I would say unto them 'if there is a God is there anything more obviously put together by Him than parents with a child?' I read here that they are apologising for the way people were withdrawn from, but I miss the point, surely if you are sorry for something and you can change it why not change it. The way I see it they are encouraging you to go back, but sure as eggs is eggs, if I went back (don't worry, hypothetical) and slept with a woman out of wedlock again I would be treated exactly the same. Then again perhaps I could go back in and still visit my out family and friends on the pretence of recruiting them back, sorry -slip of the keyboard 'apologising for the way they were treated' - Worth a thought? Sorry Chas that beer would be out of the question.
Personal note to Dan or Ruth (blood bretheren) if you do manage to read this guestbook we'd all love to hear from you. I know you're taught that happiness isn't the most important thing in life but I sincerely hope that you are both happy in your chosen way. Leaving you two and Mum and Dad was the hardest thing about leaving the peebs for me and still is, but apart from that I am doing OK. The Peebs know this about us ex's and it is the only weapon they have left to entice the weak back in, they are forcing people to remake a very painful decision, purely in the interest of boosting numbers. This amounts to mental torture, not interest in saving souls as they would have us believe. The bible teaches compassion, having compassion does not include abuse - mental or physical. I really wish that you could experience what I've experienced since I left but the main thing I have learnt is that there is about the same ratio of good / evil people in the world as there is in the peebs, and it is not for any person or persons other than yourself to decide which is which, and who you should or should not have fellowship with. Love you both and miss you always. Tim
Guest: Melissa Kirk
Guest E-mail: melissa @kirk.zzn.com
City, Country: Toronto, Canada
Date & Comments: November 29, 2002
To: Judy Crutch,
You took the words right out of my mouth, that's exactly the way I feel. Many of my family members ask me, "why does it bother you, you can't even remember when we were in". But it does. There is a piece missing - a large piece. I don't understand, and yet somehow I think I can reason with them. My family doesn't stop me, but they warn me that it will be painful. And of course because I don't understand but think I do, I talk to them (my relatives that are in) anyway and the rejection hurts.
Some people say they will never forget, but I'm having trouble just with the forgiving part. My childhood fantasy of a big happy reunion is more of a joke now. My only solace is that my true family are the ones that stand beside me every day and love me for who I am, regardless of what I believe in. Maybe that's what God is trying to teach me, the hard way. But it still hurts.
Guest: Peter and Rachel McCormack
Guest E-mail: pjmccormack20@hotmail.com
City, Country: Belfast, N Ireland
Date & Comments: November 29, 2002
just updating the e-mail address.
Peter, Left in 1983, Belfast, and wife Rachel (Albon) ex Portsmouth, UK.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: November 29, 2002
A very effective way to deal with any PB's is, to demand they verify any statement by "show me where it says that in the scriptures?" They are very willing to quote ministry, or say "this is what we hold the truth to be" but when handed a bible and asked to, as the Bareans did "to search the scriptures to see if these things were so" they stumble and stammer around with little to say.
Their main claim is they are "separating from evil" but in actual fact and practice they treat all believers as "evil" and in doing so are despising the work of God in the people they are treating as"evil. I can well leave whatever they have done to me- they have the Lord to answer to in despising His own. Scripture warns us against doing this. In the apostle Peter's dream, he was specifically warned to "not make common that which I have cleansed"
In Victoria, we once had a brother and his wife bring their 3 yearold grandchild to a "tea meeting" and we told them to take the child away, because we could not eat with her, on the grounds the child would contaminate the brethren. I hope to have the opportunity to bring that incident up with them, and ask them about what the Lord said about offending little ones" it would be better a millstone be hanged about their neck and be cast into the sea, than offend one of these little ones"
I sincerely believe we should welcome the opportunity to make contact with these folks, and use it as an occasion to witness to them. They are quite thrown off guard with this, believing we are all "bitter" and sunk into the depths of sin. They are thrown quite off balance when asked about their personal relations with the Lord, and how are they getting on in their souls....The funny thing is, I used to be quite intimidated by them, but when you actually get a chance to challenge them, one on one, they are quite pathetic, with very little to say. Sad, really.
Guest: Martyn Ricketts
City, Country: Evesham, Worcestershire UK
Date & Comments: November 29, 2002
Hi
Just wondering if anyone knows of or has heard of a family that used to live in Finchley/Barnet area in North London. The are relatives of my mother Joyce Ricketts of Evesham.
The lady is my mother's sister, Mirriam Porter (nee Chinn) who married Geoffrey Porter. Mirriam Porter is my Aunty and she had a daughter Madaline who married somone from France. Geoffrey Porter also had a daughter from his first marriage called Rosemary who married Headley Temple.
As far as I know they are all still with the Tayor Brethren though I understand Geoffrey Porter has passed away.
If anyone has any information of these people please can you let me know as we have never spoken to them since 1970.
My mother who is now 80 would love to hear about them. Her sister Mirriam must be about 90 if she is still alive.
Many thanks
God bless
Martyn Ricketts
Guest: Steve Smith
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: November 29, 2002
A year or so ago, Stephen Hales was withdrawn from for driving a minibus with children whilst under the influence of alcohol (he had a long term problem). Does anyone know whether his brother has brought him back?
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: Suppressed
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: November 30, 2002
To Tim, 29 November
I think the verse you're looking for is Mark's gospel, chapter 10 verse 9: "What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder", a principle that the Jims have been driving a bus through for the last 40 years.
Cheers
Oliver
Guest: Hazel Silcock nee Shimwell
Guest E-mail: Hazel@silcockfamily.freeserve.co.uk
City, Country: Plymouth, UK
Date & Comments: November 30, 2002
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com.au
Date & Comments: November 30, 2002
To all those in Nambour who would seek to leave Peebs and those elsewhere. You would be far better to do it now, if you are still young enough. The old may as well die within its unholy ranks. The Peebs are already a spent force. I doubt if there will be many around in the next thirty years.They cannot get converts. They exist due to only one factor: those breeding within it's own ranks.Not through conversion but fear and financial control can they maintain their position. What a disgrace to the Jesus of the Gospels.Think about it, with a clear and unbiased mind, Spirit filled.Power crazy men corrupt this world, not T.V. Faxes, Computers. Unfortunately, religion can be a far more dangerous drug of addiction than heroin itself. Christ Jesus came to give us freedom, not bondage. Free yourself of any ties to books, men, religious elders and all other mental idols and go to Christ DIRECTLY. Drink from the true fountain of Truth, stop searching the scriptures looking for life, stop seeking churches too, life can only be found in CHRIST. HE is your true IDENTITY. The false identity you have built up with the aid of the drugs of men's religion, will only put you in an artificial high or stupor. Such is the condition of Peebs. Christ must be born within the manger of one's own heart, before the old man, the flesh[EGO] can be gradually removed. Try Sigler Ministries.www.sigler.org there are multitude of interesting ministries here.
Guest: Anon
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: November 30, 2002
For the information of those interested, Stephen Hales was not even dealt with for the offence mentioned by Steve Smith. He was shut up for a period of 3 weeks a couple of years ago, while he underwent treatment in a clinic for his problem.
Guest: Brendan Sweeney
Guest E-mail: brendan_sweeney@xtra.co.nz
City, Country: Auckland, New Zealand
Date & Comments: November 30, 2002
For those of you that haven't had your 'Visit' yet, don't get too excited.
After 12 years, we had ours yesterday. Basically they came to apologise for the way they had treated us and then proceeded [to] ask us in detail about how we had been mistreated. So they had no idea what they were apologising for. I came away with the strong impression that it was more about them, than it was about us. Clearing their collective consciences before the great uprising, as it were.
It was an amiable discussion, but a complete waste of our time. I should have charged them my hourly rate!!!
So for those of you waiting with expectant hearts, good luck. We've moved on and so have they.
Regards
Brendan
Guest: Stanley Wayne (Whan)
Guest E-mail: swayne@hvc.rr.com
City, Country: Walden, New York,
Date & Comments: November 30, 2002
I am the son of Milton Whan and June Furner (Whan) who were converted by Open and Exclusive Brethren around 60 years ago in Sydney, Ausralia. They founded a youth camp for the Open Br. and became evangelists and then missionaries to Japan. They were disfellowshipped when I was young but remained preaching in Japan for 40 years. I practice law in New York. I am a lawyer and in sympathy with many Brethren principles but am not in touch with Brethren now-- would like to be. Stan Wayne
Guest: David Sharples
Guest E-mail: dgs32@ozemail.com.au
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 1, 2002
I notice that some are having difficulty in finding the exact passage of scripture to which they would like to refer when visited by the peebs.
Just log onto http://bible.gospelcom.net/, fill in one or two words of the passage and it will find it for you. You even have the option to choose what bible version you desire including the Darby version.
Guest: [suppressed by request]
Guest E-mail: ashlo@precision.aunz.com
City, Country: Brisbane
Date & Comments: December 1, 2002
To Nambour Exclusives:
It was good to hear from you on this site. Could you please send me an email as I do not have your telephone number? I would prefer to be annonomous here for the time being for the sake of my family. (You will know what I mean). I know you all quite well. I used to go the the lunch breaks with you not so long ago. Thinking of you lots and I look forward to a reply ASAP.
Guest: Peter Wilson
Guest E-mail: pjwilsy@hotmail.com
City, Country: New York, USA
Date & Comments: December 1, 2002
I notice that the guestbook lately has become a slanging match between pro- and anti-EB factions with a few debatable "still EB"'s thrown in. I wonder if it is time to create a separate discussion group for arguing about religion and leave the guestbook as a guestbook, that is, a place for people to leave their names and contact details to help to be put in touch with others. But that's up to Mr Wyman.
And hey! I have another great idea. Reading the entries there are probably half a dozen regular contributors who still sound like EBs to me, but maybe live under somewhat less strict rules but under the same principles. I won't name them but I was amused to read an entry about someone 'being well advised to take the EBs up on their offer if he was invited back'.
If these people are serious, and as they are still so EBish, why don't they all go back for a while (and just put up with a few inconvenient stricter rules) but take their mobile phones and faxes with them in secret and keep in touch with each other? Slowly build a reputation and take over the leadership, and once fully established, then lead all the EBs out! Simple! Problem solved! I get all my family back!
Peter
Guest: Geoffrey M Gardiner
Guest E-mail: geoff@gardinerg@freeserve.co.uk
City, Country: UK, England
Date & Comments: December 1, 2002
In the words of my headmaster,many years ago:
'God be with you, till we meet again'.
Guest: Charles Turner
Guest E-mail: charlesandrewturner@hotmail.com
City, Country: London
Date & Comments: December 1, 2002
Hey Tim,
Don't go back just yet. We still need to have that beer.
In a wider perspective the PB's are not that bad. Are they? They are just another small minded group of people that do what they do because they're told to and frightened to do differently. For example:
a. In Nigeria the Muslims are going to kill a women, after she has weaned her child, because of adultery. Over 200 people died in rioting against the Miss World contest. I'm sure her friends will watch her execution- but say nothing. The local Muslim equivalent of a priest will pray for her with great concern.
b. In the Middle East people are still stoned to death, without propers trials. A friend of mine saw a stoning of a 17 year old girl who was pregnant. She claimed she was raped. The man (who was important, was believed). She took 4 hours to die. Her parents threw the first stones
c. The ancient Inca's used to sacrifice small children. (Their own) to the gods.
d. In large parts of the world arranged marriages are still part of society. Rejecting them can lead to punishment
e. Millions of Germans followed what Hitler said. Many killed innocent people (e.g. 7 million Poles). The vast majority of Germans outside Hitlers power are very good people. Power does funny things to people
f. My wife and I have friends who are both Croats and Serbs. Two of them live in the same house. In the last ten years they left their countries because both sides were not only killing each other, but practicing genocide against each other.
The list could go on an on: Uganda, Chile, Afghanistan, the Crusades. Read any History book and you will see people that do what they do because they're told to and frightened to do differently. So the PB's are not that odd after all. Just another one in many thousands of groups over the years that have created a man made belief and fear system. In fact they are quite moderate compared to some of the others.
My point is that these very unfortunate people get born into/ swept away by man made doctrine and do very bad things because they are conditioned to believe them. PB's have been conditioned for years to discipline people by depriving them of family, home, finance and friends. This shock treatment has worked on the masses, just like any other system in history.
PB's are now being conditioned into believing they are doing very graceful things by contacting us. Fall for it if you want - but there is no personal conviction - just a carrying out of orders.
I for one have told my family to clear off and never contact me again on their terms. Harsh it may seem - but they are a very big family and have each other. I am the only one that was kicked out 19 years ago. It is mentally highly stressfull to see my family on their limited terms with their fake conviction. If they ever contact me again, I will just tell them to get right first, then I'll speak to them (sound familier). If they 'get right' I'll welcome them with open arms. But they need to make the first step and try to leave the cult.
We can worry about them all we like or we can just look at them as another blemish in the history of man. Sad but true.
Guest: Suppressed by request
Guest E-mail: Suppressed by request
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 1, 2002
I have recently had substantial contact with a number of current EBs, through circumstances - not because of choice on either side. Contact was, for the most part, very amicable and very friendly - to the point of sharing jokes and chatting about 'the good old days' when we were all young. It was as if we picked up where we had left off nearly 30 years ago. They all begged me to come back and bring my child with me. "There's a place for you both with us" (is this an 'authorised' expression?) I'm just wondering if there is a particular reason for their need to get us all back. A reducing gene-pool, perhaps?
Guest: Suppressed by request
Date & Comments: December 2, 2002
I would believe piorities will be given to those who were 'approved' before they were withdrawn. So if you were always the 'approved' one, chances are they will be knocking on your door first.
For those not 'approved' ones, don't dismay. They will still catch up on you eventually *laughs*. Personally I have some thoughts on why they would be so active in their current 'mission'. Boosting their 'gene-pool' might not be a reason, more rather by bringing withdrawns back, they are able to get more information about those uncontactable few. Also, this site is a threat to them and their 'truth'.
Those are just wild guesses although I would love to know their reasoning. Maybe they should try making a 'Membership Renewal Form' LOL!
Guest: Alan Carvell
Guest E-mail: alancarvell@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Dudley England
Date & Comments: December 2, 2002
Please note my new email address: alancarvell@blueyonder.co.uk
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne Australia
Date & Comments: December 2, 2002
To clarify the sigler ministry site go to: www.sigler.org then proceed to kingdom page and its many connecting sites.
Guest: Melissa Kirk
Guest E-mail: melissa@kirk.zzn.com
City, Country: Toronto, Canada
Date & Comments: December 2, 2002
I'm a 21 year old college student, (formerly of the EB's when I was a baby) and I've been doing some work for an online magazine called On The Wall Now. It's a Toronto based online magazine run by college students, and I would really like to do an article on the Exclusive Brethren.
I would prefer input from people in Toronto, or Canada. But any input would be appreciated. If any of you "current EB's" read this and have anything you think would be revelent, I am not opposed to telling both sides of the story and as it will be a collaborative effort with a journalism student from Ryerson I'm hoping it will be as fair as I can make it.
Please feel free to email me anything you wish, all names in the article will be changed and I will be discreet if requested.
Thank you in advance.
Guest: Current Brethren (Withheld)
City, Country: Chippenham, England
Date & Comments: December 3, 2002
Anybody around the Chippenham area log into this site ?
Guest: Victor Congdon
Guest E-mail: jcongdon01@snet.net
City, Country: Portland, CT USA
Date & Comments: December 3, 2002
Greetings To All,
Just checked in to see what's happening. Then again, who or why care? Much thanks to Dick for this great uniting work.
If you are waiting for them to call and arrange a visit with you don't hold your breath. Just send some money. They are not interested in you they are only interested in your money. Don't forget that they only like cash so no money orders or checks. Be generous they need all the help they can get.
Then I read the spell-checker entries. Spelling is also my second language. I have always been comforted by the saying, "It is only a small mind that can not spell a word more than one way." On reflection, do not the EB spellers prove the truth of this statement?
Thanks B.S for your entry on 11-22-2002 with your poem on spelling. Wonderful. I printed it out and stuck it to my monitor. Thanks. I assume B.S stands for British Speller?
For those interested and who like to read I recommend a great book. "Systematic Theology, An Introduction To Biblical Doctrine," by Wayne Grudem. Published by Inter-Varsity Press Leicester, England or Zondervan Publishing House Grand Rapids, Michigan. A great read and only $30.00. A must read for those who think they received good Bible teaching while with the EBs. Come to think of it a must read for all ex-EBs. Just one quote from its pages. "True Christianity has flourished just in proportion to the degree in which the Bible is known," Charles Hodge.
Only by grace,
Victor
PS Hi John. Where would any of us be were it not for God's grace.
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: PJFrench#64;Celestial.com.au
&
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 3, 2002
A friend and I were speaking yesterday about the current plight of the peebs, and he suggested that they had "lost their moral compass" - they are presently clearly amoral.
There MUST be a growing band of disaffected peebs who think the Hales-led bunch is too liberal, and have lost sight of their founding principles.
There MUST be a split surely? and will that then be the end of peebs as we know them...?
A lot of people don't understand the Australian arrogance ... THAT makes real the difference this time around. There was no pause, just an anxious and immature rush to take over.
This whole current modus operandi is simply crazy - using their 'scrpitural' principles, how do they justify this amorality doctrinally, or has the voice of the MOG totally overruled everthing?
So - WHY are they doing these sorts of things and behaving like this? How many of us were excommunicated for a fraction of what is currently either ignored or permitted - if there is any difference between the two?
Over the past week I have 'taken notice' of a few things, and have collected some evidence and facts including:
1. People being reinstated immediately to full fellowship without anything being asked or addressed.
2. Young people in some cases almost taking over Internet Cafes.
3. Those inside so freely talking to some of us - it must border almost on 'fraternisation' - remember that word?
4. People reinstated but permitted to [a] remain in professional associations; [b] eat with people 'outside'; [c] live with 'outsiders'; [d] attend meetings only once a week; [e] maintian their previous 'outside-of-the-fellowship' lifestyle.
5. Those inside so openly flaunting the rules forbidding TV, radios, pubs, nightclubs and so on.
6. The complete reversal of attitude towards those who are gay and who have been living in a gay relationship, and currently married peebs freely admitting to those outside that they are gay.
I could go on for pages here ...
Hales has admited to someone that things are 'out of control' - wow! how could he come to that conclusion? :-)
So what is going to happen? I predict a split not very far away and some will openly reassess their positions as far back as Aberdeen. The Rentons and other previous splits will win out here, and some return to some vestage of what was there previously. Some will totally opt out and try to make up for lost time...! The greatly reduced core will be totally directionless, and will temporarily further inbreed, and they hope like crazy for the end of the world!
But really, when you think of it, is it any differnt form what HAS been the position - maybe the position and actions are more obvious, but the character of hypocracy has been around - how long now?
Oh! - by the way ... I ain't a goin' back nohow!
Guest: (current renton peeb)
City, Country: North of England, Newcastle
Date & Comments: December 4, 2002
Just wondering if any brethren from north of England on the guest book
Guest: J
Guest E-mail: peebsaver@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: December 4, 2002
To add on to Peter French, I too have some new findings around my area.
1. More families are beginning to have second thoughts about the leadership and the 'brainwashing'. Most of them have family members who have left the church and returned. - Seems like it is not that bad to be contacted by the EBs. At least it gives us a chance to share the Truth to those still in fellowship.
2. In another case, an EB admitted to having a friend of another religion and openly sharing their religious ideas. - Some signs of religious tolerance???
3. A few have recently bought TVs and Computers (mostly hidden) to prevent their kids from leaving.
4. They are the best story-tellers, coming up with the most absurb tales. - Not new.
I can take all these down quite well but I truly question on the 'relaxing of rules' and 'rules can be broken if it means bringing someone back to fellowship'. So are they implying we can bargain with GOD and GOD's words can be taken lightly if to our advantage? If that is so, then I sincerely doubt the religious standing of them now.
Guest: admin
Guest E-mail: admin@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: Worcs UK
Date & Comments: December 4, 2002
Oh well, a relaxed regime eh!
Believe it when I see it.
If thats the case they might feel enlightened enough to buy the URLs www.exclusivebrethren.co.uk and www.exclusivebrethren.org.uk from me. That's unless anyone else has a valid use for them.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: North Wiltshire, England
Date & Comments: December 4, 2002
I would be pleased to email the Chippenham, England guest if he/she would indicate a suitable email address. Or if you would like to contact Dick Wyman directly, it is possible that this could be done without revealing your identity.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: December 4, 2002
I am waiting with bated breath for a visit, after 30 odd years of endeavouring to keep some slim contact with my parents by spending 10 minutes on their doorstep every now and then. I would like to know if others have had prior warning or been contacted prior to the visit, or do I have to be on edge every time the doorbell rings or a car pulls up outside. Also, is it just family who visit, or do they always bring a 'priest' with them?
Guest: Darren Hughes
Guest E-mail: darren.hughes@orange.co.uk
City, Country: Ex Chippenham, England
Date & Comments: December 5, 2002
To North Wiltshire guest ! I used to be 'in' the Chippenham area. Please feel free to drop me an email.
Guest: Nigel Herbert
Guest E-mail: NPHerbert@aol.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: December 5, 2002
To the anonymous visitor from Chippenham on 3rd December, please e-mail me at NPHerbert@aol.com.
Two ways I would love to assist:
Drop me a line, and let's chat.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia (ex-UK)
Date & Comments: December 6, 2002
Dick
Just a point on your mention of Roger Kirkpatrick on the "What's New" page.
Assuming that this is the Dr Roger Kirkpatrick (MD) I can remember very well from being "local" at Brisbane in 1968/69, he is quite a few years older than me and therefore presumably well into his 60's by now. He is a cousin of John (deceased) and Bruce (senior) Hales. I think his mother was a Hales, or alternatively she was a sister of John and Bruce's mother. In any case, Bruce junior is one generation removed from Kirkpatrick, rather than a straight cousin.
Roger and his brother Bill were quite kind to me, and gave me an "intro" which resulted in me being asked to tea with JSH and his family (including young BDH) on a visit to Sydney. However, shortly after I left the Jims I encountered RK in a Brisbane street and he looked straight through me in a very steely manner indeed. I can imagine him being pretty tough if he wanted to.
In reality, most dictators are very wary about having an official 2IC, eg Stalin and Hitler, who both played off their underlings against each other. It may appear to be David Bill to Kiwis, or Kirkpatrick in Brisbane or even Australia, but dictators or elect vessels are essentially loners.
Incidentally, Roger Kirkpatrick was quite rotund, and I was under the impression he had some heart problem, so it's a bit of a wonder he's still with us. His wife struck me as a nice girl.
Oliver
Guest: Anon
City, Country: Anytown, NZ
Date & Comments: December 7, 2002
What's the panic in NZ at the moment - there seems to be a major re-shuffle to get themselves re-grouped, i.e. new sub-groups and churches (is that what they call them?) being set up. People having to move to new cities and suburbs.
Guest: Francis (Frank) Mortyn
City, Country: San Diego, California
Date & Comments: December 7, 2002
My e-mail addresses now are:
< fra59e@yahoo.com > or
< frank59@stanfordalumni.org >
Guest: Peter Weightman
Guest E-mail: peter@weightman.dabsol.co.uk
City, Country: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
Date & Comments: December 7, 2002
To 'current Renton Peeb' (or any other exEBs from Newcastle) - I (and my parents and brother) left the EBs (we were in the Westley Street, Newcastle, Meeting) in 1968, just before my 21st birthday. I would be very happy to be contacted. My 'phone number is 0191 268 6968. I visit this site from time to time [thank you for it, Dick!] and have I think signed the guestbook - though I suppose that was a few years ago!
Soon after leaving the Meetings I moved to the West Midlands to work. I returned to Newcastle in 1987 (with my wife Liz - who has a Methodist background - and our three children) to be close to my parents, whose health was poor.
We attend the local Anglican Church in Killingworth where we now live.
Regards, Peter
Guest: Stuart Price
Guest E-mail: info@stuartprice.com
City, Country: Canada
Date & Comments: December 7, 2002
I recently had a conversation with some folk still in the Taylorites. They encouraged me to come back stating this is the "Age of Recovery" and that many have come back into fellowship some after being out for many many years. While I've been aware that they have been inviting people back I'm not aware of any that have actually gone back. Does anyone know of anyone that's returned? Personally I can't imagine anyone that's experienced freedom and release from such bondage and distortion actually going back unless it was strictly for family reasons.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend, England
Date & Comments: December 8, 2002
Stuart Price, I can confirm that some peebs have returned to the dungeon. You've got to bear in mind that a lot of expeebs are emotionaly [or financially] quite isolated, and weak minded enough to give in to the onslaught on their freedom. 'There's nowt so strange as folk.'
I know David Reeves, from London [my brother-in-law's dad] returned after about 25 years, and tried to persuade my brother Richard to do the same. Jim O'Prey from Redbridge has returned after about 8 years and wrote us a 4 page letter wishing us to join him. I have been told Kevin Dormer from Chelmsford went out briefly and returned, but I've only heard that second hand. I think the same stories can be said for many places.
Sorry to be depressing, but people often make silly decisions, especially if they're under pressure, don't they?
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Margate, Kent, England
Date & Comments: December 8, 2002
On Tuesday December 3, 2002 I visited Philip Woodcock (son of Max Woodcock from London), Mrs Janet Woodcock (Nee Devonish and daughter of John Devonish recently deceased), Timothy Sharp (son of Arthur Sharp of Luton) and Lizzie Sharp (Nee Forshaw and daughter of Ronnie Forshaw of Croydon). The meeting lasted two hours. It was most interesting. They were all surprisingly humble about certain things like the way they had treated me. My wife Margaret (nee Petersen and daughter of Billy Peterse) came with me. She was told how privileged she was to have grown up under tbe ministry of the "elect" James Taylor Junior. I will be happy to write comprehensively if anyone is interested... I now live in Tunbridge Wells but was from Margate. My father John and Uncle Bob still live there. Regards to all readers. Guy Wilson
Guest: Anon
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 10, 2002
I am wondering if anyone has heard of any more news on Adrian Joyce?
I am in the Exclusive's in Australia, and have been keeping a listen out on any news, but to no avail. It is very concerning the way he was hi-jacked back to Australia, and it seems he will not be the only one! Something has to be done. In Australia the papers made a big fuss on the Catholic and Anglican Archbishops, Pell and Holingworth. But it seems that was nothing compared to the Exclusives.
Guest: Adrian Joyce
Guest E-mail: adrian_r_joyce@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: December 10, 2002
Hi to all this is Adrian Joyce here the young guy who was in Singapore before being seconded back to the E.B.'s. This listing is to thank all who have held me in their hearts and prayers throughout what has been a very trying time for me. I am moved by the open display of concern and interest on the part of many who have commented and/or offered/extended assistance to my partner in life and I.
I have provided my email listing here so as anyone that may wish to contact me may do so, I am open to any queries and will do my best to answer them accurately. To the person who placed a listing here as Anon saying that you were currently in the E.B.'s still, I am safe and well thankyou I am sorry I can not release my wereabouts as this may result in further trauma of which I am in no state to put up with at the moment. If you are willing to email me at the email address I have provided I will respond within a day or so. I would be keen to correspond with you.
Regards to all and again Thank you.
Guest: Geoffrey Gardiner
Guest E-mail: geoff@gardinerg.freeserve.co.uk
City, Country: Birmingham, England
Date & Comments: December 10, 2002
In response to Guy Wilson and Margaret. Dec 8th.
I also was 'privileged' to have grown up with lost friends, broken families and destruction of all sorts, under the 'ministry' of the "elect vessel" James Taylor Junior.
Guest: John
Guest E-mail: jpillar@houston.rr.com
City, Country: Houston. Tx
Date & Comments: December 10, 2002
Hi there Peebs and Expeebs. I'm interested in finding out anything about the whereabouts of my long lost cousins.... Graham Pillar, who is in Kilmarnock, Scotland or Rachel (nee) Pillar, who has dissappeared without trace. Their parents are David and Muriel Pillar ... they were in the Bath area but have now moved to Swansea, UK. My Australian cousins, who are Joy, Eunice and Priscilla (nee) Harvey are also completely out of touch. Their parents are Emmie and Phillip Harvey, who still live in Sydney.
Any news much appreciated. Thanks.
Guest: Adrian Joyce
Guest E-mail: adrian_r_joyce@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: December 11, 2002
Hi to all.
Some have asked that I give some information on tactics used by the church at the moment to lure or second outs back.
1. They will bend ANY rule to track a person or to get them back, eg. mobile phones, internet or even venture into 'unclean places'
2. They will use emotional blackmail as much as possible, eg. Family
3. They will resort to threats if they need to for example should they know something about you that you don't want someone else to know they will threaten to use this against you. They may not necessarily use a point blank threat but rather subtlties that indicate a point.
4. They will promise all sorts of wonderful things to get someone back and even bend the rules but this is only temporary as they expect that once a person is back that 'conviction' will come in.
There are more but if you wish to speak to me please email me and I will respond. If anyone reads this who is thinking of going back, ultimately it is your choice but if you want any questions answered I will not influence for or against the Brethren I will simply answer your questions.
Over and Out (quite literally) hehehe
Guest: Current EB
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 11, 2002
To Adrian Joyce,
My heart goes out to you the way you have been treated over the recent time.
Guest: P.T.
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Victoria, Canada
Date & Comments: December 11, 2002
Go back? How can anyone go back? To what?
To teaching that other Christians are 'unclean'.
To evicting a 3-year old child from a meeting as 'contaminating' the assembly.
To treating women as 2nd class citizens and drudges at that.
To taking the words of a man, the so called 'elect vessel' over the word of God.
Splitting familes - what God has joined....etc.
They have the 'form of godliness, but deny the power of it.'
No thanks - they are a disgrace to the Name of the Lord.
Guest: Andrew
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: December 11, 2002
A question for Adrian Joyce. Adrian we presume that you were "back in." How long before you left again? Thanks
Guest: Adrian Joyce
Guest E-mail: adrian_r_joyce@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: December 12, 2002
I was 'recovered' one week after arriving back in Berwick, this was a relativley painless practise the main aim to just get somone back and then allow conviction to set in.
I then left on the weekend 2 weeks after being 'recovered'. This may have been longer if I had not been able to act the part. If I had not been co-operative or at least appeared 'convicted' I would not have had the freedom to use the telephone or go out anywere I could contact help.
Again please feel free to contact me on my email.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: December 12, 2002
There is now widespread evidence of PB contact, inviting persons who left or were chucked out to "come back into fellowship" [but how one returns to something [the fellowship of God's Son, our Lord Jesus Christ] that no one can take away from us, I really don't know.
When questioned on the reasons for their activety over the last 40 odd years, their main claim is 2 timothy 2- where we are enjoined to separate from "vessels to dishonour"- and rightly so- but their interpretation of a "vessel of dishonour" is anyone and everyone who doesn't walk with them [pronounced "evil"]-and therein lies the greatest error- I openly challenge anyone to call a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ a "vessel to dishonour" Indeed, to do so, is a direct contavention to the injunction "do not make common that which I have cleansed" when the apostle Peter was holding himself aloof from gentile believers.
Also, when qustioned, they still stoutly defend the actions of JT.jr in the matter of Aberdeen, when he was caught in the sack with another man's wife. The issue never was about JT.jr- the issue was whether or not we would be governed by clearly defined scriptural principles on assembly action- that of accepting and being governed on the principles of witness. My bible doesn't say you are to be governed by that, except if person in question just happened to be JT.jr. It does however stongly warn about "respect of persons"
Funny, they don't want to talk about those things-and if one is looking for a charactorization, the parable of the two men who went up to the temple to pray, and the one said God be merciful to me the sinner, and the other, lifted his eyes to heaven, said "I thank God I am not as other men" Sound familiar?
Guest: Grant Hoyle
Guest E-mail: ghoyle@wxc.net.nz
City, Country: Tirau New Zealand
Date & Comments: December 13, 2002
Yes the EBs are going to great length and expense to boost flagging numbers. My Dad Snow Hoyle got a visit recently to say he had been treated too harshly. The "Priests" flew from NZ to Australia just to see him. My Dad Snow Hoyle had been out for over 20 years. My bother Wayne Hoyle is out as well. We are hoping he doesn't go back to the hellish life of an EB. Thought I would include this poemm
Last night as I lay dreaming
I died or so it seemed
Then I went to heaven
But only in my dream
Up there St Peter met me
Standing at the pearly gates
He siad "I must check your record
Please stand here and wait"
He turned and said "your record
Is covered with terrible flaws
On earth I see you rallied
For every losing cause
You drank far too much alcohol
Divided families and friends too
Fact is you've done most things
A good person should never do
We can't have people like you up here
Your life was full of sin"
Then he read the last of my record
Took my hand and said "COME IN"
He led me up to the big boss and said
"Take him in and treat him well.
He used to be in the EBs
He's done his time in HELL
I was an EB for 30 years myself and have grown so much since I have left. I spent 3 years at University when I first left. Have also spent a lot of time working with underprivileged children in Colombia and also in New Zealand. I even managed to get to Bristol whch I never had been able to whilst in the EBs. My tongue was not long enough to lick people in the right places to get there. Anyway while pushbiking the length of England/Ireland/Scotland/Wales I finally got there. If any one wants to look me up while in NZ my phone no. is 07 883 1066
Guest: Anon
City, Country: London (UK)
Date & Comments: December 13, 2002
pmclarke says "I openly challenge anyone to call a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ a "vessel to dishonour". I take the challenge. I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ from the age of 8, but spent time in my youth with wordly friends drinking, swearing and generally being a dishonour to the name of Christ.
Although I do not agree with the way the Jims apply the scripture I think the opposite is equally dangerous. John's ministry teaches us that what is of God cannot sin (1 John 3:9), but Paul's ministry teaches us that we should care for how we walk (2 Thes 3:11-15). Most believers confuse the two and hence you see unjudged evil proliferating the highest levels of the Church.
One of the Jims biggest mistakes is to ignore 2 Thes 3:15 "and do not esteem him as an enemy, but admonish [him] as a brother."
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: December 13, 2002
In reguards to the last entry taking up my challenge on the subject of "vessels to dishonour" I am in no ways excusing sin, and completely agree with the scriptures quoted. I think the fact we have "this treasure in earthen vessels" and that we all, while in these bodies of humiliation, fight a constant battle with our own natural tendencies, gives very real meaning to Romans 8, which describes the conflict between what we know we should do, as opposed to what we actually do.
My point was the way scripture can be taken out of context, and applied to justify pretty much anything. Remember- the Pharisees attempted to justify the crucifiction based on their religion. But to accuse all other believers as "vessels to dishonour" simply because they do not belong to "exclusive brethren" is disparaging to the work of Christ in those believer's souls, and that was the point I was attempting to make- hopefully this clarifys my position.
Guest: Still in !
City, Country: Bristol, England
Date & Comments: December 13, 2002
Anybody from Bristol frequent this site ?
Guest: Eric & Kathleen SKINNER
Guest E-mail: ericsk28@aol.com
City, Country: formerly of Reading- now living in Exeter UK
Date & Comments: December 13, 2002
It's a long time since we were at Reading or Gillingham, but we still recognise names on the list! If anyone knows us and would like to contact us, we would be delighted.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: December 13, 2002
Now here's a funny thing....We have recently received a written apology for the way we were treated before we left, and an offer to meet face to face so that they are able to put any other outstanding things right with us......All this despite the fact that we recently began legal proceedings against one of their more senior members, a relative of ours, on a count of sexual abuse (who lives in another 'city'). That one must have been kept quiet, else surely they wouldn't have done what they have ?? Poor people, going back to them. They are corrupt, mindless, nosey, money-grabbing worshippers of men. We have a REAL, proven, link with Jesus and we thank Him every day for saving us from that sham. Our heart goes out to those still 'in'...you are in our prayers. May you find the courage we did, to leave family and people you've known since birth to truly worship Jesus, rather than this vile Taylor/Hales dynasty whom God must despise, for attempting to divert the glory to themselves. Our local library has a book written by a journalist about 'Aberdeen'. It makes very interesting reading for anyone who wants to know what really happened.....Note the author was never sued !!! Keep up the great work Dick, it is much appreciated.
Guest: owner of meka
Guest E-mail: armoursue@hotmail.com
City, Country: Peterborough
Date & Comments: December 14, 2002
Recent survivor of a tramatic brain injury.
I am still in the process of getting better.
I have come back some 85% or more so I have been told. If you feel the need to talk to me and ask me any questions feel free.
if you need a contact to verifyify what i am saying as the truth,
contact Dr. JH
351 reid st. Peterborough
k9h=-4g3
(705) 741-4748
she will verify any of the information.
Guest: noone
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: December 14, 2002
hello ex peebs?
I'm not a peeb
I just want to know what would happen if I asked a peeb out on a date
I think she would but would it link
what do peebs think of non peebs
Guest: Anon
City, Country: Anon (England)
Date & Comments: December 14, 2002
Hi there,
Can anyone tell me the difference between the "Needed Truth" Brethren and the Tight Open Brethren, I'm in the latter, but wondering what the differences are? Any help appreciated, thinking of joining Needed Truth, Open Brethren are in dis-array. Seeking the Lords help on where I should gather
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: December 14, 2002
I know it goes back 30 odd years, but has anyone ever heard of PB legal action, successful or otherwise, commenced against anyone, newspaper, author, news commentator, etc. for allegations made about JTjr in the matter of Aberdeen?
Guest: Adrian Joyce
Guest E-mail: adrian_r_joyce@hotmail.com
Date & Comments: December 14, 2002
Hi to all,
I would like to thank all of those that have shown an interest in 'my story'. At the moment I am very busy with business interests as well as dealing with the follow on baggage of the church.
There has been concerted efforts on the part of the E.B.'s to locate me and as yet they have been unsuccesful to my knowledge. They have tried to make things hard for me out here to the point where there may be legal proceeding take place due to the nature of some of their actions.
Due to all this I am under considerable stress at this time and also time restraints.
Within the next month I will however create a webpage detailing 'my story'.
I am still more than interested to answer emails answering questions you may have that can be of assistance to you.
AJ
Guest: George Hayward
Guest E-mail: george.hayward@maxnet.co.nz
City, Country: Wellington, New Zealand.
Date & Comments: December 14, 2002
I have been out for more than twenty years, but became aware of this website only a few months ago; it is interesting to see the names of some of those I knew back then. For a little more info about me, see my new Names page entry.
I am now keeping up with the current goings on, with amazement! At the time of my severance (1981) I had been bold enough to allege that the then current universal lead was a "rival minister" (a term in popular use at the time to justify the posthumous discrediting of some previous generation brethren leaders) because he was in reality a rival to Christ. Needless to say this did not endear me to the leadership, and along with an appeal letter I sent at the time to the 90 or so households in Wellington, my reputation is probably sufficiently "stained", permanently, to ensure that I won't be included in the current round of "please come back" visits! (I have submitted that letter for inclusion in the "Dear Jims" section of this site.)
My wife and three children (Philip, Andrea, Joanne) remained behind; if anyone has any recent news of them I would be interested to know where they are now.
An observation: I believe that the EB's are under the power of a deep spiritual deception, and are therefore incapable of responding to the reality which has become so plain to those of us fortunate enough to have escaped. Hence the deliverance of those still "in" will not come from our attempts to persuade them by logic or reason, but can only come as the result of earnest prayer, deep intercession, and warfare against "the spiritual forces of evil" which hold them bound (see Ephesians 6:12).
In the name of Jesus, we have the victory; and (with thanks to Victor Congdon) "only by grace",
-- George --
Guest: Elizabeth Bunting
Guest E-mail: dbunting@shaw.ca
City, Country: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Date & Comments: December 14, 2002
This is addressed to Anon's question of December 14, 2002 re the Needed Truth Brethren. As one who was put away from the Needed Truth meetings for joining a singing group, I believe I can assist you with this.
The Needed Truth Brethren call each meeting in a city, The Church of God in that City. They believe that the aggregate of all these meetings constitute the House of God on earth - the "Place of The Name" and that no one else is worshipping God in His appointed way except them. They also refer to their meeting as The Fellowship of the Son of God and all those "outside of fellowship" are not worshipping God. They have city oversight, district oversight and all the overseers in all the meetings are a United Elderhood. If someone is put out of fellowship for chewing gum in one meeting, he or she is not allowed to break break in any other of their meetings. I hope this will help you. You will notice a book in the website library called "The Search For the Truth of God" by Dr. A.T. Doodson of Birkenhead, England. This book sets out their history and the basic tenets of their creed. As with all of these Plymouth Brethren type meetings, they are dying out.
I hope this helps.
Also, only by Grace
Elizabeth Bunting
Guest: Elizabeth Bunting
Guest E-mail: dbunting@shaw.ca
City, Country: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Date & Comments: December 14, 2002
This is further to my previous message to anon re the Needed Truth Brethren. I forgot to mention that they have a website: www:inthelord.com where you can get information and contact them.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend, England
Date & Comments: December 15, 2002
I would like to accept the present 'apology' mode of the peebs at face value, and I'm sure it feels like a big step to take.
I don't think they should be beating themselves up about 'misrepresenting' their leader [the 'Man of God'/'Elect Vessel' of the time].
Excuse me for interfering, but wasn't the arrogant bad attitude to other people inspired by leaders like JTJnr and JH Symington? [remember the little wall plaques saying 'Sue the Bastards' that were popular during those eras?]. I'm not going to read through these guy's printed 'ministry', but I think that somewhere in there you'd find pretty conclusive proof about this. I'm sorry but I don't want any help from peebs at checking this because: [1] I'd expect them to just cherry pick any bits they could find to suit their current dogma. [2] It's too boring
However if they are looking for ways to deal with the worst of their excesses I've got a few ideas and I'm willing to assist.
Guest: bust
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: December 15, 2002
What do peebs think of worldlys
has anyone asked a pb out
what happened
why cant peebs have radios
do they hate music
is music evil to them?
thank you and good bye.......?
Date & Comments: December 15, 2002
just like to say your doing a great job
this site is great
a life line to some people
it must be so hard to leave the pbs
and start a new life
lots of love and peace man
from a worlder worldly
Guest: Jan Bentley
Guest E-mail: bentley.jan@xtra.co.nz
City, Country: Hamilton, New Zealand
Date & Comments: December 15, 2002
I am not or nor have I ever been a EB, but I have always been fascinated by the Eb trying to find out about the lifestyle. I grew up in Palmerston North, and my fascination stems for going to school with a few EB. I have always wondered what happened to the girls I knew, can anybody tell me if they are still in or out. These are their maiden names, Greta Barnes, Sandra Currie, Susan Farquar. I went to school with Greta from primary school through to High School they were so bright the girls I always thought they should have the opportunity to go to University. I myself am a registered Nurse. another thing I have always wondred about is what happens at a EB wedding, do the girls wear beautiful Wedding dresses like the rest of us,...thanks for reading this....Jan
Guest: Brother Francis CCN
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: San Diego, California
Date & Comments: December 15, 2002
See the "Visits" sub in "Correspondence" on this website. I look forward to an interesting conversation when I get my "visit". .. .. ..
Guest: Mark
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: December 16, 2002
Comment regarding Gerard's comments of December 15 and "Sue the Bastards"
This language was common in JH Symmington's meetings yet he was proclaimed as the "Man of God" and / or "Elect Vessel." What unchristian behaviour and a load of rubbish at best. How preposterous to give these guys these titles; it is blasphamy!
JS Hales followed and continued the "Sue the Bastards" line. At present and under the new "Elect Vessel" (Bruce Hales), there are a number of child access cases where their approach demonstrates this mentality.
If they are truely looking at the wrongs inflicted Bruce Hales should examine some of the current custody / access cases; the fabrication and lies told to the Courts and the general contempt of legal process, rights of the child, rights of the parent etc etc.
The heartache, distress etc caused over the past 40 years is immense. If those who had left applied their "Sue the Bastards" approach; we would stand a good chance of a successful class action for damages as a result of the distress, health and financial losses incurred as a result of these brutal separation actions and legal cases bought by this cult.
Guest: Mark Hayward
Guest E-mail: markh@markhayward.com
City, Country: New Jersey, USA
Date & Comments: December 16, 2002
For an excellent lucid explanation of how people come believe the (sometimes very strange) things that they do I highly recomend 'The Biology Of Belief' by Joseph Giovannoli, ISBN 0970813716. It is available on Amazon.com for $19.95. It also explains why it is so hard to let go of the beliefs that we have been programmed with from youth. Be warned that this is a dispassionate accademic (but very readable) work that does not indulge the theological sensibilities of the reader.
Season's Greetings to all my old friends and acquaintences from our EB days.
Guest: Hugh David Percival
Guest E-mail: stevepercival@redesdelsur.com
City, Country: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Date & Comments: December 17, 2002
Getting steadily more and more p_____ off here. Nobody's tried to contact me an' try an' woo me back to the arms of .... just what exactly? I've been "out" for 29 years if I remember correctly. I'd put up with a lot to hear from my brother, sister and my dear old 'Ma. But I guess they think I'm too far away (or unsalvageable.) If and when any of the "High Priests" read this, I hope they'll take account and send somebody out to see me (it's extremly cheap here at the moment) preferably my sister Catherine.And I haven't had sight nor sound from her since I was 15 years old.
Guest: Geoffrey Gardiner
Guest E-mail: geoff@gardinerg@freeserve.co.uk
City, Country: Birmingham, England.
Date & Comments: December 17, 2002
You think you know?
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
@
City, Country: Str Rasaritului No 104/37 Cluj-Napoca Romania
Date & Comments: December 15, 2002
Dear bretheren I am so glad finding out from yours pages the sincere interes for promoting the Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. May God bless us all the born again christian from this generation in our daily fight with the evil spirits and hidden enamies which join often our old nature. I am a single christian and as CHM said it is the Lord's purpose for us to be among thouse christian who meet outside the camp or rather alone. Some times it is quite hard for me but I still hope to get that assembly of brethen ready to listen to the Lord's voice only. Could I dare bretheren to ask you for that book of Neatby? I would be so grateful to you if you'll send me it. I already read N. Noel history. Yours in the love of Lord Jesus, Ioan Tripon
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: December 18, 2002
I would be most interested in hearing the answers that the "new look" pb's give to a very simple challenge on where they stand in relation to the authority of scripture [as we all do].
A very simple question to any visiting pb might be to ask where they stand in relation to the "sue the bastards" statement. The scriptures plainly state we are not to take a brother to court. I would like to hear their explanation of how "sue the bastards " is not a direct contravention of that scripture. I would also like to hear their explanation for calling any believer in the Lord Jesus a "bastard" I would like to hear what the pb's think how the Lord might view his own being treated that way.
I suggest that while the pb's have not expressed any remorse, or repentance over their actions, perhaps bringing to bear the scriptures may prick their consciences and they might begin to examine their own hearts. If and when that begins to happen, there is no force on earth that will quell the process of self judgement. I see no evidence of any true repentance on the part of their leaders, but if the ordinary folk begin to question what they have been told, and how they have been mislead, we, just might begin to see a revival. I truely hope so, for all our sakes.
For the record, I wonder would everybody being visited, ask this question on the "sue the bastards" and post your answear.It would be very interesting to see what the consensus is.
Guest: Anon
Guest E-mail:
@
City, Country: Anytown, NZ
Date & Comments: December 19, 2002
Forgive my anonymity - hopefull one day I can explain. To answer a few questions: No radio, TV or movies - that is unless they can get away with it - music stores listening to CD's, TV's in shop windows - movies on aeroplanes. Can look over someone's shoulder using a computer as long as they don't actually do it themselves!! The teenage generation are getting very curious about the "outside" world. My question to others is: why do they try to treat "outsiders" - and I refer to females in particular - as second class citizens? Is this the way they treat their own women? I suspect it is.
Guest: Martyn Ricketts
City, Country: Evesham, Worcs, UK
Date & Comments: December 20, 2002
Hello to all regular and new visitors to the site!
Greeting to all at this time of the year as we come to the close of 2002. Just want to encourage all those who are hurting because of the "System" There is a day coming when all this strife will cease.
Revelation 21
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City new Jersalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying " Now the dwelling of God is with men, and He will live with them. They will be His people and God Himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." He who was seated on the throne said "I am making all things new!"
Take hold of what God says. He see's your tears, pain and hurting and one day He, God Himself will wipe your tears away and will be with you for ever. Let faith rise and see Him the One who came in to the world to save sinners, the One who is now exalted, Jesus our Lord and Saviour.
God bless you all and have a Happy New Year
Martyn Ricketts
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 20, 2002
I have been ex-EB for many, many years. Recently my "in" nephew phoned and told me my only sibling was gravely ill. I asked if I could visit and was very warmly told "yes, please do - we want you to", which I did, meeting adult nephews and nieces I had never seen. (A "Priest" and others were in the vicinity, but not intruding on our family "reunion".) A very loving and cordial exchange took place between my EB family, myself and my adult family, who had never seen their cousins. I was able to see my loved one a couple of times, right up to the time the Lord called. I asked and was given the opportunity to see my remaining parent (albeit in the presence of "priests"), and also attended the graveside committal. I was told they could not stop me going there because the cemetery is public property - anybody can go to any funeral. The trick is to know when and where! Which brings you to the question: How do you find out? I was lucky - I was told. The burial was a very interesting experience. I and those with me seemed to be quite an object of curiosity and whispering amongst EBs. However, after the committal, quite a number of current EB spontaneously came and spoke to all of us ex-EB. Conversation was pleasant, relaxed, humourous. We were urged, of course, "please come back".
Reading and hearing of others' experiences in similar circumstances, I seem to have been particularly fortunate. I wonder why?
Guest: Margaret Wilson
Guest E-mail: margaret.wilson@btinternet.com
Date & Comments: December 21, 2002
Guest: Bro. Francis, CCN
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: San Diego, Southern California
Date & Comments: December 21, 2002
at 14:17:30
The word "bastard" is fully scriptural - see Deuteronomy 23:1-2.
That text specifically implies restriction on the bastard, but there is no suggestion that he is outside the company of the chosen people.
The letter of J.T.Jr. to the NEW YORK TIMES, published on this website, shows that as late as 1964, before his illness (alcoholic dementia and Tourette's syndrome) took hold of him, J.T.Jr. clearly understood that -
A solemn defect of Brethren is their adherence to the false doctrine of separation. Separation is *not* the authentic basis for a Christian walk in unity and the allegation that it is so is a fundamental error of J. N. Darby the outcome of which has been uncounted sufferings, pain and evil acts.
Guest: Margaret Wilson
Guest E-mail: margaret.wilson50@btinternet.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, England
Date & Comments: December 21, 2002
JTJr's alcoholism PART 1 for use in meetings with Exclusive Brethren
(JTJr was my father's uncle; hence I shall call him "Uncle Jim") Uncle Jim started drinking socially taking his children to restaurants and buying them alcoholic beverages. Sadly, the children of alcoholics are often alcoholics too and Consie Hales was in this catagory. Uncle Jim was a shy man and gradually, found that a few drinks "helped" him through meetings. Brethren were not used to seeing the effects of alcohol in one another because they tended to drink in moderation or not at all. However, Uncle Jim was hospitalized in 1965 due to the effect of alcohol on his liver. Ben Taylor, James Taylor, Mina Taylor and the Gaisford twins from Luton knew of this fact and kept it very much to themselves for fear of what it might do to the Brethren movement. Meetings became riotous, a change from the more starchy fare and were seen by only a few as the advanced stage of alcoholism. New rules were made more frequently most notably being the one telling the women to wear their hair down as a sign of affection for him, Jim Taylor. Like robots, and under threat, we complied. (to be continued)
Guest: Anon, A current Peeb.
City, Country: Australia, Brisbane
Date & Comments: December 21, 2002
To you all.
I am absolutely disgusted in the way some ex-peebs are treating current peebs. Example. A very loved family member of mine has openly told me he is Gay. For which I respect him for. He also is a current peeb. Over the past week he has been in contact with a ex-peeb who shares the same simulars as my family member. This person has been a great deal of help. But everything that is being said by my family member, either by email's or phone, The Brethren seem to find out! This has now got myself and my family member into a great deal of trouble. I am not blaming this person as yet for being the traitor, but, it is getting very fishy. I am so very disgusted that my family member can be very "open" to these people, then get backstabbed as a thankyou. No words can comprehend at how I feel at the moment. We have lived up to our side of the trust with him. But I feel let down. When I told my family member what had happened, he was most very upset. It looks like the only emotional support he gets is in the Brethren. Because he certainly did'nt get it outside. I would love to give those ex-peeb and his friend's names out on this who I feel let us down, but I will not. I still held up my end of the bargain. TRUST.
Guest: Peter Harrison
Guest E-mail: peter.pan3399@virgin.net
City, Country: Derby. UK
Date & Comments: December 21, 2002
Yes! I am getting the phone calls.
Yes! I'm being emotionally blackmailed.
Yes! Someone turned up on my doorstep, but wasn't let in.
There are a lot of Evil forces in the world, and the EB's are right in the midst of it.
As we approach Christmas, where we celebrate the birth of our dear Lord & Saviour Jesus Christ. Let us all attend midnight mass, and take strength as we review once again that Holy Night when a Saviour was born to take away the sins and evils in the world.
A Blessed and Holy Christmas to you all and a wonderful happy 2003
Love
Peter
Guest: anon - current eb
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 22, 2002
To current eb in Brisbane.
Following your entry recently I can fully understand how you feel.
I had contact with an ex eb's partner that was gay only to be back-stabbed the same as you have had.
Everything that was said via email was told to the ex eb who contacted his parent(still in) to try and cause trouble.
Guest: Margaret Wilson
Guest E-mail: margaret.wilson50@btinternet.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, England
Date & Comments: December 22, 2002
JTJr's Alcoholism (Part 2)
'The system' hotted up at the end of the '60's and Aunt Renee, Uncle Jim's second wife, found his behaviour embarrassing. More frequently, when Uncle Jim went away on a ministerial tour, she would decline to go saying she wasn't feeling well. Without her influence, Uncle Jim's behaviour worsened. The meetings at Aberdeen were case in point. Aunt Renee stayed in New York while Uncle Jim 'let his hair down' at Aberdeen, openly displaying vile behaviour including going to bed with MK. I spent Christmas 1969 in Australia and watched him and Consie drinking at the home of W Bruce Hales until they were bleary eyed. Aunt Renee did not come on this trip either. Uncle Jim flew first class where alcoholic beverages were free. It was on this trip that I met one of John Hales' sons born on 26 June 1950, my birthday.
After Aberdeen the Ks went to stay with Uncle Jim. Stanley McCallum, AB Parker and Mr Hoyt had been withdrawn from by Uncle Jim over the phone. My mother was troubled about what was going on and phoned Uncle Jim. Aunt Renee answered and poured out her feelings telling my mother she was torn between her fears about alcohol and his claims that the Lord was telling him what to do. My mother told this to my father who went to see his uncle about getting a doctor. Uncle Jim wouldn't see him but Aunt Renee gladly reiterated what she had said to my mother. My father then went to see James III who suggested withdrawing from his father and went round to see him. Uncle Jim convinced James that his ministry was in the 'Pauline line' or equal to that of the Apostle Paul. Dad went to see Ben Taylor who willingly acknowledged his father's illness and resulting conduct.
Guest: Ted and Esther Druckenmiller
Guest E-mail: tedruck@quixnet.net
City, Country: Trenton, Missouri, USA
Date & Comments: December 22, 2002
SEASONS GREETINGS 2002
I awoke this morning with the distinct impression that we expeebs need a Christmas message on this wonderful website. Many of us can recall, Christmas as a difficult time of year. We were not to use the word Christmas. I remember a fellowship meeting in Westfield NJ in which JT made the statement, “Are we like the people who say THE SAME TO YOU?” Intimidating us almost from even friendliness to our fellowmen.
My parents who had left denominationalism for the brethren always felt for us kids, so they started “gift day” in our home. We shared gifts and our parents always saw to it that each of us kids was given something. Gift day could be any day, but not Christmas day.
We had an expression “Jesus asked us to remember His death, not His birth.” Now that we can stop and think about expressions we exclusives used, it becomes clear the absurdity of the whole lot of it. I for one have learned to rejoice in this time of year. Yes, there may be a bit too much commercialism. Just don’t get entangled in it. Go on with a right and true appreciation of the incoming of Jesus, “A Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11.
I have been tremendously impressed this year with the many cards and letters sent to Esther and myself from around the world. It is wonderful really that at least once a year we sit down and think about the blessed joy of knowing and appreciating one another.
But my waking impression is to put a message on this fine internet site to wish a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to our website host, Dick Wyman and his family. Then to all of you, so privileged to enjoy this site having been delivered from religious rules and bondage, I feel impressed to say what Jesus said when instituting the supper with His own, “This is My body which is given for you, do this in remembrance of Me.” Luke 22:19. We do well to remember Him, which certainly includes His coming into the world His hands created as that lowly babe laid in a manger in Bethlehem.
Oh, dear friends who visit this site, may we in the language of Galatians 5:1 “Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.” May our blessed Lord Jesus Christ help us to use this site for its intended use, reacquaintence with our loved ones, prayer for deliverance for the many of our beloved brethren still held captive in a false religion, and prayer for reconciliation of many broken families. We love you, and say to all, Merry Christmas and prove the wonderful blessings of our God in the New Year.
Yours, with affection in our risen and glorified Savior and Lord.
Ted and Esther Druckenmiller
Guest: Margaret Petersen Wilson
Guest E-mail: margaret.wilson@btinternet.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, England
Date & Comments: December 22, 2002
JTJr's Alcoholism Part 3
My father had been careful not to answer our phone in case he was withdrawn from over the phone. That Saturday, August 22 1970 Uncle Jim showed up at Nostrand Avenue meeting room as sober as a judge. Dad opened the meeting by saying, "Certain matters have come to our attention which we can no longer ignore." Uncle Jim said, "He says I need a doctor, he needs a doctor, I withdraw from you, Bill." When Dad proceded to state the case, Uncle Jim ordered his supporters to leave. Only one or two left. The rest wandered about the room, conducted mini-conversations or cried aloud. The execution of AB Parker and Mr Hoyt who had obtained the tapes of the Aberdeen meetings, was still fresh in our minds and we knew that something was awfully wrong. New York split down the middle. The suffering in those families who had lost members and friends was terrible. Those who decided for Uncle Jim were instantly locked behind the wall of separation and were denied the truth.
Ben's son, John, was in England on that fateful day and was encouraged to shun his parents. He went to live in the basement of his grandfather's house where an ample supply of whiskey had been stored. It was only a matter of time before he saw the excessive drinking and went home to his family. Uncle Jim died in October 1970 at the age of 70. His biggest crime is not his alcoholism but the cruel division of families strewn across the earth. Those who stay do so because of Fear, Finance, Family, Friends and Fame.
Guest: Heather Dutra
Guest E-mail: hrdutra@yahoo.com
City, Country: Seattle, USA
Date & Comments: December 22, 2002
As a former Brisbanite, I read with interest of the entry dated December 21st, signed by 'current peeb' in reference to the gay family member.
It seems that your 'loved' family member made the choice to tell that xeb about his situation. I do think that living in the EB world, one becomes too trusting of others.
Perhaps it is better for the truth to come out afterall. Like anywhere else in the world, or in any organization you do have to be careful who you trust.
By writing about this on here, now the whole world knows of your situation.
Finally, wouldn't it have been better to challenge that 'xeb' instead of broadcasting this on the World Wide Web?
Homosexuality is a sensitive issue with some people you know....
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: December 22, 2002
I think it is very timely that Margaret Wilson [Peterson] is writing her recollections of the events leading up to the 1970 split. Although the pb's are making eforts to contact ex members- the subject of JTjr is off -limits. They still perpetuate the story that the "damage controll" spread to counter the very blatent and undeniable events surrounding Aberdeen- indeed the brethren never sued for damages on the newspaper articles- because the evidence was overwhelming.
The story they concocted was it was a "mystery'or an "ambush" and that cover story continues today. I hope and trust that those reading this who are still "in" will begin to ask questions- and demand answears. Too many people have been hurt, too many families split up- indeed it split husband and wife, children from parents, friend from friend.
The time has come for the ordinary folk to demand their leaders tell them the truth. If the Berlin wall can come down, then so can the brethren's wall.
Guest: Still-in, not for long
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 23, 2002
My family has decided to leave the EBs after seeing what has happened and how the assembly has been dealing with things. This has lead to my parents realising that they have been living a lie. We are currently planning our finances and getting the necessary things sorted out before leaving, hopefully by the end of this year.
Just a few advices for the outs and people watching this web site. The situation in Australia now is rather serious. I have heard that the church has hired a company to track down locations of outs. Also, a few brothers have been appointed the duty to assist in getting these people back. They are given the special permissin to use computers, mobile phones and other means so long as they are used for the 'right' purposes.
As crazy as it sounds, rumours are that the brothers are using ploys to trick outs from returning to the church, even if it is unwillingly. They believe that as long as they can guide a lost sheep back, they will be able to salvage them.
I can't say more, in fear that they might find out who I am but please be careful. I strongly urge all ex-ebs to avoid helping anyone for the time being, even if they seem genuine. It is one of the ploys of the brothers. This is done with the assistance of the company. All I can say is if you receive any calls for help and even if you know the person calling, think twice before offering them a hand, no matter how genuine they are. Also, a few posting on this site 'recently' is done by the brothers in hope to confuse anyone reading it.
I will keep this post updated.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancoutner@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate
Date & Comments: December 23, 2002
Two weeks ago my wife and I went to see Philip and Janet Woodcock and Tim and Lizzie Sharp. The Woodcocks live nearby. The Sharps live about 100 miles away in Luton. They are all in. Margaret and I have been out since Aberdeen. About two years ago I had been to see Philip and Janet to enquire about Janet's father, Mr John Devenish who was not well. I was given the cold shoulder treatment. Now, the interesting part is that Philip profusely apologised for the way he had treated me and told me that he was not "displaying the gospel". His wife, Janet (nee Devenish) had been in the bank about three years ago and I had had a very pleasant conversation with her with no unpleasantness at all. I told Philip this and said that I could not understand his cold shoulder treatment. The meeting lasted two hours but we were not offered a drink. I will post some more here some other time but suffice it to say that the meeting was very cordial although not gushing. Stay tuned for the rest of the instalments. They are going to be fun. Guy
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: PJFrench@Celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - ex Warrnambool 1982
Date & Comments: December 23, 2002
## A Merry Xmas to you all. I also will be going to Midnight Mass tonight with my life partner of 12 years. Being in Australia, we beat you all and maybe that is why the derelict vessel is based here :-)... you see, the world will end firstly here! So, I'll take my mobile phone and laptop along, and if we go up, will phone my mates [Dick and Guy] and post a message here so the rest of you can do your final housework. Nothing worse than leaving the dishes undone or the beds unmade .... and don't forget to cut the lawn!
## To: Guest: Still-in, not for long City, Country: Australia. I hope that all goes well for you and phone me if you wish on 0413 126 728 when you 'escape'. Some of us are very well aware of the methodology currently being used - but it doesn't worry us, as, unlike them, we have nothing to fear nor to hide. Some will be shaky, and myabe they should never have left in the first place. No one is pressuring anyone - but I will as I have done, do all that I can to assist anyone who wants to leave the cult of their own free will.
The important thing for you, is to make a clean break, and start afresh. Remember that you will be set free, and possibly the hardest 'release' will be from the philosophies and practices that become so ingrained in peebism. You may float about for a bit, but in time will settle with a comfortable set of rules for your lives - of your chosing. Whether you become born again, join a maintream religion, become an agnostic or even an atheist, THAT is YOUR choice, and no one here or anywhere else has the right to attempt to sway or influence you. So good, luck and get on with it.
Peter French
Guest: Connie Bunning
Guest E-mail: paco.bar@cox.net
City, Country: formerly Indianapolis
Date & Comments: December 23, 2002
It's been a while since I signed in and I wanted to say hello and Merry Christmas
to those who might remember me or my family. Please feel free to e-mail me to let me know how you are doing. I'm looking forward to having a joyful Christmas with my family members who are out. I remember my mom making the daring move of placing a red candle on the mantel at Christmas time. I wonder if she still does it.
Good health, love and friendship to you all in the new year.
Connie Bunning-Barton
Guest: Still-in, not for long
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 23, 2002
Dear Peter, we have made this decision as a family and I do not predict any difficulties for us in the long run. The brethrens know how active you are and I believe you can be assured they will not haress you. However, a recent case of a young EB returning and then escaping again created a huge uproar. I am extremely worried about the safety of this person because the brothers know where he is and they have been using cunning means to manipulate his trust for others in his same plight. I am giving out too much information here but I don't care anymore.
To the young man who has successfully left the assembly again, please do not come back, and please be careful to who you are talking with now. Do not trust them. You know what I am talking about. It is all a very clever scheme. A scheme that shows how fast the church has evolved and adapted.
To all on the website, be careful of all anoynomous postings. Unless you have their name and have checked in that locality, do not trust anyone, no matter how sorry they sound. I regret to say I was forced to be part of the ploy although I managed to somehow talk my way through in the midst of it. I have told my parents about this guestbook and they send their love to everyone here.
Guest: Iain Gibb
Guest E-mail: Iain.Gibb@campbell-lee.co.uk
City, Country: Grangemouth, Scotland, UK
Date & Comments: December 24, 2002
As someone who visits this site regularly, and contributes very occasionally, I would like to wish a Merry Christmas to everyone.
To any still in the Exclusives who are monitoring this site for whatever reason, I wish you all the best. I pray you will have the same experience as the shepherds and hear the great news that a Saviour has been born. When the wonder of the incarnation dawns upon you, you will never understand why you spent so long following a petty and man-dominated religion. But when it happens, you will fall down and worship.
I know also there are many who read this site who find it difficult to know what to believe – about the exclusives or about Jesus or about God. After all, many dreadful actions have been carried out ‘in the name of Jesus’. Nevertheless I urge you, read the story of Jesus again from the gospels as an honest and humble seeker. I promise you, you will re-echo the words of Philip Yancey, ‘The Jesus I never knew’. You will see that the people who shaped the Exclusive monstrosity never really knew or followed the Jesus of the gospels.
But to all of us, I use the words of Timothy Dudley-Smith: “Come now with joy, to worship and adore Him Hushed in the stillness, wonder and behold Christ in the stable where His mother bore Him Christ whom the prophets faithfully foretold High King of ages, low we kneel before Him Starlight for silver, lantern light for gold”
And finally, on a completely different subject, a number of you have asked me how my son Jonny has been getting on after he won the Survivor UK challenge earlier this year. I'll reply to all here. The money hasn’t gone to his head; he hasn’t spent any in the way he said he would on the show (I am glad to say!), but he has got yet another tattoo on his arm! and has raised quite a bit of money for cancer research in memory of his mum – climbing Kilimanjaro and a few other publicity events. He will be heading out to Vietnam then on to Australia some time next year.
Love to all and have a great Christmas, but please, remember ‘the reason for the season’ Iain
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancoutner@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate
Date & Comments: December 24, 2002
RE: OUTER DARKNESS PHILOSOPHY OF JT jr.
Peter French's comments for the benefit of the family in Australia who plan on leaving (just as the clarion call is sounding for the rest of us to return!) cause me to post this titbit of my conversation with Tim and Lizzie Sharp and Philip and Janet Woodcock.
I referred them in our visit earlier this month (see earlier postings) to the outer darkness ministry if you go out of fellowship. I told them it was complete and utter rubbish. Their hair almost stood on end as I battered "Uncle Jim" as my wife calls him, before their very eyes.
I asked them where their missionaries were. They had no answer. I showed them photos of about ten missionaries that I know personally and mentioned that the Open Brethren (dirty word indeed) had more missionaries around the world than any other organisation. Oh dear, a hornet's nest was opened up. Tim told me that the Lord had spewed the Open Brethren out of his mouth like the Laodecians. I had forgotten that one!!! Another bit of sheer garbage being propagated by the Taylorites who still regard themselves as "THE CHURCH". Sad.
I shall look forward to getting a mobile call from Peter French in due course. (See his Christmas posting).
Guy
Guest: Anon, Current peeb
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 24, 2002
I think it's sad at some people making false posting's, Pretending to be a peeb when they're not! I have been in contact with some people about the authentisity of some of these postings. And have found out that some postings, mainly the regular, are from a person/persons who have not even been in the peebs. It is sad that they don't have a life. Maybe they are the person/persons who are the monitors? I think that this site needs to weed out the trouble makers. Don't get me wrong, this is a great site. But you get these drop kicks abuseing the system.
Guest: Current EB
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: December 24, 2002
Rumor has it that more than 1000 people have returned to the E.B.'s since B.D.H. have assumed power!
Guest: Victor Congdon
Guest E-mail: jcongdon01@snet.net
City, Country: Portland, CT. USA
Date & Comments: December 24, 2002
Holiday Greetings to All,
May all who read this be in the real joy of Christmas.
There is no greater joy than knowing that Christ Jesus Came Into The World to save YOU & ME.
That is what Christmas is all about. Enjoy.
Only by grace, Victor Congdon
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@celelstial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - ex Warrnambool 1982
Date & Comments: December 24, 2002
To PEEB STILL IN
1. You'll be OK - this will [be] the real time when you prove God's support and provision.
2. Adrian Joyce is OK - he has written here earlier since his escape - I collected him, bought him his ticket and put him on the plane, and God is his protector - the peebs don't stand another chance, but that issue may not be over yet in another context - you can't kidnap people just like that ... to threaten or blackmail people into submission is the constructive deprivation of liberty.
3. The peebs don't worry me. I am a pacifist not an activist. My faith has been through the toughest test - the peebs weren't there as they didn't care [their own admission] but it proved how strong my link was with my God and how true he is to his word...and those evil people in that cult almost convince us that our 'link' is gone forever - what a wicked lie! ... but it only adds to the list.
So may all have a wonderful season of freedom and celebration.
Guest: Darren Clifford
Guest E-mail: dwc@paradise.net.nz
City, Country: Blenheim NZ
Date & Comments: December 24, 2002
Just having a look around to fill intime on xmas day
Guest: also a current peeb
City, Country: Tasmania, Australia
Date & Comments: December 25, 2002
To the Anon Current Peeb.
I totally agree with you that there are people here who have never been in the Exclusive Brethren.
Can someone tell me why they get a kick out of doing this?
They must be very low to make false claims.
Some of the recent listings from Australia just don't sound right. (non genuine) But like you said. Maybe they are the person/people tracking this site.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: December 25, 2002
A happy and thankful Christmas to all. The children are still sleeping, and I pause to consider that my Christmas present is still there.......nailed to a tree. My Father gave it to me....He knew how much I needed it, but I shall never know how much it cost Him.
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: PJFrench@Celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: December 25, 2002
Guest: also a current peeb
City, Country: Tasmania, Australia
Date & Comments: December 25, 2002
To the Anon Current Peeb.
You seem very concerned - well I suppose someone has to be :-) because those of us who have left don't really care. It is doubtful if anything negative from your viewpoint, could really be said, that is not factual. You sound upset? It is a bit of a joke you coming here with your self righteous attitude - it is you who are being hypocritical and exercising double standards - we have left both the environment where that prevailed, and also the need to be like that.
Apparently you aren't kept up to date - at least 2 separate 'outside' contractors are employed to peruse and report on this site, not to contribute in any way. It appears that 'summary' reports, names etc are reported back rather than actual or detailed message content.
If you are wanting to leave, you will find every support available. If you are seeking the 'wooden spoon' award, try 'stirring' somewhere else, because we really don't care what your opinions are. If you are starting to see the light through the clouds, fog and haze of the double standards, hypocracy, uncleaneness, unrighteousness, and moral corruption - the denial of the very essence of true Christianity, you will realise that you don't need to be condemnatory or highhanded.
In the meantime, we feel sorry for you and will still pray for you - YES, ex-peebs can pray, and very effectively. The power is on our side - NEVER doubt it.
Guest: YOUTH withe TRUTH
Guest E-mail: theautomann@msn.com
City, Country: http://www.reddINK.com
Date & Comments: December 25, 2002
Being head-injured, coma almost three weeks, find out what I found out when I went to Heaven. You'll be very surprised and enlightened by the Trinity's magnificent, mellifluous knowledge: With such a price-tag on our souls, human beings are clearly precious beyond diamonds; Declarations can never describe how effusively colorful and illuminating Upstairs was... and is forever. Sign the GB, too. God Bless You with discernment. Tell others about my killer URL -b9, the Catalyst4Christ
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail: justinscifiction@aol.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: December 25, 2002
This is a time of year where many of us have a pleasant meal and a family reunion. We must remember there are many who do not, and miss many dear ones. At Christmas we celibrate a day a baby was born. How we long for the day when the Spirit of this child is born in all men. Now we know Jesus was given a body to be sacrificed at Calvary. Calvary has levelled the ground for everyone. We have all died in Him, and we are all raised in Him, no exceptions, no exclusions. In the light of the resurrection we no longer "know any man after the flesh", we no longer see our brother through carnal eyes, rather we see the face of Christ in our brother, allbeit he may even be a member of Exclusives. All are redeemed and seated with Christ in the heavenly places. If you walk by natural eye-sight, you will never see the Victory of Calvary, you will never see HIM of whom it was said "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has annointed Me to preach the Gospel to the poor, He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind." The eye of faith, sees not just sinners saved by grace, but rather Sons of God who have been given the victory over this world. You see our ONENESS IN CHRIST is never dependant on what we do, but rather what Christ has done for us at Calvary. And as OUR oneness is dependant on what Christ has DONE at Calvary, why fear those amongst us who have different points of view? No matter what P.B's. do or say they cannot break this indissoluble ONENESS. Scripture tells us we can do nothing for or against the TRUTH as it is beyond the reach of mortal words. If we judge our brother, we are breaking the commandment of Christ, including those "to love one and another" and we are feeding on the Tree of knowledge of good and evil.....living on death.
Guest: Vegemite
City, Country: A Current Exclusive, Australia
Date & Comments: December 25, 2002
I better explain to all of you as I was told recently about the false postings on here. Peter French. Be very carefull who you help. A posting here from Australia is not genuine. This family has never ever been peebs. The country is wrong also. I can't say too much right now. But the Brethren are trying to track down the "false" posting authors. I don't know how, but with the wealth and power of the Brethren the people making it should be very carefull. I am leaving the Exclusives myself when I have plucked up enough courage to do so. I put a lot of trust in a realative of mine. But was burnt at the end. It was that relative who told me about the postings. I have lost a lot of trust in the Brethren and outside worlds. Just be very very carefull.
Guest: K. A. - still-in
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 26, 2002
I regret to say that my posting has caused so much uproar. I expected it to happen, naturally. My family is set to go anytime, so I don't care if they try to track us down.
Apparently there are three groups of people in the church now. The first group are people who know whats going on and supports it. The second group are those who know whats going on and rejects it (us). The third group are those who are kept in the dark and refuse to believe, thinking it is a set-up. Think aberdeen.
My family decided that we should wash our hands in any matter relating to the assembly once we leave. There are too much back-stabbing going on. Somehow this guest book has become a source for peebs to confuse outs. Just something I noticed. All postings that are directed to me are Anon, in Australia and are all planning to leave too. I didn't know there are so many of us planning to leave at this time. Wonder how Mr Hales will feel when so many of us are using the internet almost everyday.
I need some advice. Is it hard to learn computer skills? I am fascinated by all these pages on the internet and I want to try making one myself. Do I need any qualification to learn and where can I learn it?
Received my first Christmas gift from my neighbour. Made me feel special. She told me I can't open it till today, boxing day???? Was a small portable cd player with a Christmas cd. Almost burnt my ear when I didn't know how to lower the volume. Took me some time to convince Mum to try and she freaked out and wondered how could people sing like that. Am looking forward to the next year when my family can spend our first Christmas.
Anyway, Happy Boxing Day. It sounds really weird, but who cares.
K. A.
Guest: Windermere
Guest E-mail: chestnuts@chestnuts92.freeserve.co.uk
City, Country: Windermere Lake District
Date & Comments: December 26, 2002
Nice site but why not check out our Hotel in Windermere Lake District we have very fine Accommodation at http://www.chestnuts-hotel.co.uk
Guest: Stan Field
Guest E-mail: stanfield41@hotmail.com
City, Country: Perth Australia
Date & Comments: December 26, 2002
Just a note I was in NZ (NELSON) recently and asked to see Edward Malcom to see if we could sort out the fibs that where told in our court case. He declined. I'm just wondering if the twits who monitor this site could twist his arm and arange a meeting. Cheers. Stan Field
Guest: bc
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: December 27, 2002
to K. A and Vegemite
What are you waiting for? Stop talking about it and leave. As hard as it may be you will survive. The more you talk about leaving the harder it will be. So just do it. We never thought we would be able to survive but you get great strength and never look back. It just needs a couple of people like yourselves to stand up to them and a lot more will follow. As you say there is a lot of people in there that are confused and just need to be shown the way to free themselves. The feeling of freedom is awsome you need to try it. There is so much more to life than being controlled and manipulated. The world is not such a bad place as they make out, you just have to use your common sense. Go for it!
Guest: Anon at present - still "in".
City, Country: London
Date & Comments: December 27, 2002
We have also had enough of this. We are planning to leave as a family very shortly.
Guest: Philip and Hazel White
Guest E-mail: philandhazel@lineone.net
City, Country: Worthing England
Date & Comments: December 27, 2002
We have had contact with some of my husband relatives who are still inside. I would like to send a message to all those who visit this site who may have just left or are thinking about it. THERE IS FAR MORE TO CHRISTIANATY THAN BEEN IN THE EB. We left the EB in 1970 along with our parents and can say we are enjoying christian life outside. We meet with a small company of christians and enjoy fellowship, We held a carol sing along just before Christmas and over 80 people attend. Christian life is being happy and pleasing our Lord and Saviour, not been told what to do. Please don't give up the christan pathway, if you have not commited yourself to him I suggest you do so now. This world is not getting any better and the Lord Jesus is coming soon.
DO YOU WANT ETERNITY IN HELL?
Hazel White
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, England
Date & Comments: December 27, 2002
On Boxing Day I visited Alan Groombridge of Nonington, near Canterbury. Alan sat next to me with his arm in a sling on the night of the Aberdeen split in 1970. That night I persuaded him to remain seated while his parents and uncle walked out with Leslie Morford (the leading brother denying what was being told about Jim Taylor and screaming all the way to the door with microphone in hand, "It's all lies, it's all lies, I won't have it, I won't have it".
Alan and I have known each other since childhood days. He was his usual charming self. We spoke for about 15 minutes. He came to the car and spoke to Margaret who told him that she was JT's great grand-daughter and that she had been baptised by JT. Wow, this was the trigger for eulogy. "Oh what a wonderful privilege to have been baptised by the man of God". Alan was visibly moved and almost cried.
Interestingly, he did not mention Jim Taylor and only briefly mentioned why he and his brother Geoffrey had decided to go back to the Exclusives after three weeks of being out in July 1970. He said, "Our instincts took us back into fellowship".
When my wife asked him for the phone number and address of Bruce Hales (BDH) he said that he was in Manchester, UK at the moment and told us whom to contact to obtain it - Philip Woodcock.
We shook hands and left very amicably. It was good to see him again after 32 years of silence.
The Wilsons and Groombridges were very good friends. It is a shame that he went back in but it was his choice and he seems happy enough.
Laissez-Faire.
Guy Wilson
Guest: Laurie Twinam
Guest E-mail: Laurie@twinam.fsnet.co.uk
City, Country: Sevenoaks, UK
Date & Comments: December 27, 2002
This is a serious time for folk still involved with the so-called Jims. Enough has been said to indicate clearly that a major moral issue has stained the Jim movement for over thirty years. There are many still kept in ignorance, or partial ignorance of the real facts, but those who continue to deny those facts, or call evil good, have much to answer for.
Judging from entries on this website, there is much confusion in the Jims, and very little sign of real godly concern about the public disgrace they have linked with the Lord’s name. Here is a word for the leaders: ‘Jesus Christ is the Same yesterday, today and for ever’. The Lord is our true ultimate Leader, and He will deal decisively with those who mislead and who stumble young people. He is the I AM and nothing escapes His eye; the refuge of lies (Isa 28) will be swept away and God’s sure foundation reinstated.
And here is a word from the Lord (John 10) for those who are confused and in need of spiritual help and counsel: ‘I am the Good Shepherd, and know My sheep … My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me …’ Read the whole of John 10 , and remember that it is the I AM who speaks; no-one can pluck His sheep from His hand.
Peter Clarke recently mentioned the collapse of the Berlin wall. The Jim wall is certainly shaking a bit. When it collapses it will be a tremendous victory, and bring a great liberation of captives. But it will be God’s victory through our Lord Jesus Christ, not ours. And as in every liberation, there will be many cases of need to care for. Some, not knowing their right hand from their left, will need hospital treatment and convalescent care. So let us continue to watch and pray.
Guest: Margaret Petersen Wilson
Guest E-mail: margaret.wilson50@btinternet.com
City, Country: New York, USA/Tunbridge Wells, England
Date & Comments: December 27, 2002
Regarding my report on JTJr's alcoholism written from the standpoint of a relative for those meeting with Exclusive Brethren: If you would like a copy, please email me or send me your address. (see my three-part entry including one on Dec 22)
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: December 27, 2002
While the most of us were enjoying Christmas with family and friends, a group of christians went to church in Pakistan to celebrate the birth of Christ, sing some carrols, and hear a message of faith- much like the rest of the world.
The only diference was someone threw a grenade in among the congregation killing three of them, and injured a number more- all women and kids. Makes you think, doesn't it?
Or is "out of sight, out of mind?"
Guest: neville mccallum
Guest E-mail: n,p,mccallum@xtra.co.nz
City, Country: Blenheim New Zealand
Date & Comments: December 28, 2002
Now that the visits are happening all around, there is the chance that someone might just be prepared to go back to the root cause of the current problems (1959) and make a rational decision. Pip and I have had a visit or two, and found them prepared to listen, but as the time approaches to tackle this root problem any info re' JTjr actions would be a great help. Entry of Margaret Wilsons very helpful. Thanks.
Guest: Ex Peeb
City, Country: Tasmania, Australia
Date & Comments: December 28, 2002
Hi there to current Peeb in Tassie. Can you tell me which end of the state you are from? I am an Ex Pb from Launceston and would love to chat to you about a a few things. Anyway good to see you are aware of this site and you do use it , Cheers
Guest: Margaret Petersen Wilson
Guest E-mail: margaret.wilson50@btinternet.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, England
Date & Comments: December 28, 2002
Answer Baltimore letter of Nov 18,2002
Re: Info about Exclusivism
Until 1959, when your brother-in-law was 9, the Brethren were outgoing and positive. However, Jim Taylor won a bid for international leadership at Central Hall, England in that year and began making new rules restricting the personal freedoms of members. Read George Orwell's "Animal Farm" to understand how this was done. It is very brief and was meant to describe communism. To tighten his control, Jim punished those who had any contact with those who had been excommunicated or who had left. This created 'divided households' and considerable suffering therefrom.
I doubt that this caused your brother-in-law's suicide 33 years after he left these Brethren. All of his family came out at Aberdeen and there were cousins with whom to associate. It is more likely that his financial difficulties and resulting depression caused him to become suicidal. His wider family didn't know how ill he was and therefore didn't offer any help. His death was a real loss to all of us who knew him. BTW you are my new cousin. Welcome to the family!
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancoutner@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate
Date & Comments: December 28, 2002
May I specifically address this to - Anon at present - still "in" - in London.
Geographically, Mr L Twinam and I are not far away in Kent. Mr Twinam has been very caring for a long time and if you need a sympathetic ear, please e-mail him or me. We are both very much of the Christian persuasion and are not in outer darkness any more than you will be once you have left. In my recent meeting with the Woodcocks and Sharps I expressed how much I loved the brethren. I also made it quite clear that I disapproved of the teachings of Jim Taylor who is still worshipped and adored all over the world by people who knew the truth about him but refused to believe it. My number is 01892 529651. If you call me I will guarantee to not mention a word to anyone without your prior consent. Be brave, be strong and come out from among them. My grandfather was in London all his life among the brethren from 1884 till 1970 (Aberdeen) and kept his bakery business open on the "Sabbath" much against the "current ministry" at the time. He was brave too. Please call me or my wife who knows more than most about JTjr and his antics! She is very supportive and understanding.
Guy Wilson
Guest: Damon & Theresa Harding
Guest E-mail: damonharding@talk21.com
City, Country: Hemel Hempstead, UK
Date & Comments: December 28, 2002
Noticed our email address was out of date.
Damon Harding, Son of Jonathan and Rosemary (nee Stott) Harding
Would love to hear from anyone who knows the family.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Scotland
Date & Comments: December 28, 2002
Recently (after over 30 years) our sisters (who are still in) have got in touch with our parents, with, it seems, a view to have them going back to the EB's. Would be interested to know if this has happened to anyone else. Have heard from somebody out with the EB's that there is some sort of recruitment drive going on - we are concerned about the effect it is having on our elderly parents who had resigned themselves to the fact they would not see/hear from their EB children again. Would be grateful for any information/thoughts. Thanks.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: December 29, 2002
To All
I am 27 years old and have never been in the Exclusive Brethren. I work at a company with a few Exclusive Brethren guys and get along well with them.
Lately I have been seriously thinking about joining the Exclusive Brethren Church. I am aware of all there beliefs, which don't worry me.
I can say that I don't talk to my family, so there will be no love lost if I join. I am a deeply Religious Christian person and find myself at ease and peace around the Exclusive Brethren members.
Can anyone inform me on what I have to do to convert to Exclusive Brethren. I have no email address, and will probably check the messages here.
Guest: John Wright
Date & Comments: December 29, 2002
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: December 29, 2002
To W Bradley, 29 December
Assuming you're genuine and not a hoaxer (let's face it, wanting to join this cult is pretty unreal), just think carefully about your statements that "I don't talk to my family" and "I am a deeply religious Christian person". You seem quite happy to deny natural God-given affection while still claiming to be Christian.
If, after reflection, you still think there is no inconsistency in this combination of attitudes, go ahead and join the "Hales" EB's - they will suit you down to the ground.
But just remember to throw away your books, radio, TV, musical instruments, PC if you had one, CD and DVD players, then move out of your dwelling if not a detached house, make sure you're not sharing a drain with anyone, forswear any university degree, get rid of the electronic locks on your car or garage, throw away your mobile phone (and fax machine if you have one), follow the prescribed dress code, enjoy compulsory attendance at over 10 meetings per week, observe both the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday)and the Christian Lord's Day (Sunday), be prepared to go and live wherever they command you, obey "infallible" leaders who think nothing of conducting meetings in a blasphemous manner while drunk and then getting into the sack with another brother's wife (J Taylor Junior, 1970), and above all be prepared to adopt recently invented heretical beliefs which were no part of Christianity for its first 19 centuries - and still aren't.
If you really are a "Christian person", you will be revolted by the blasphemous farrago that is taught by this cult.
Please feel free to show this to the "brothers" you work with. If they are inclined to deny the bit about J Taylor Junior, I will be very happy to send them a CD or Cassette of his 72 minute performance at Aberdeen in 1970. You can listen to a brief extract of it on this site.
And finally, just use a little common sense, mate.
Oliver
Guest: Peter Wilson
Guest E-mail: pjwilsy@hotmail.com
City, Country: New York, USA
Date & Comments: December 29, 2002
On taking a relaxing wander thru the Guestbook after Christmas I was somewhat perturbed to find a warning about eternity in hell being thrown at me - in block capitals, no less!
Can I respectfully suggest that we all check Mr. Wyman's site 'Policies' from time to time and also take note of his guestbook comment that 'These names and addresses are posted to enable people to contact friends and loved ones. Please do not exploit this information ..."
I've mentioned before my concern that the Guestbook is starting to sound like a recruitment ground for departing (and maybe confused and vulnerable) EBs, depicting an 'out of the frying pan into the fire' situation - let's remember we all have a free choice. Peter French summed it up recently with "Whether you become born again, join a mainstream religion, become an agnostic or even an atheist, THAT is YOUR choice, and no one here or anywhere else has the right to attempt to sway or influence you." My vote is to quit preaching in the guestbook and use it instead "to enable people to contact friends and loved ones."
Guest: anonymous
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: December 30, 2002
Yet another confirmation of the exclusive brethren contacting those that only a little time ago were "not fit for their fellowship". Now it seems these "misfits" are O.K. and the explanation for the extreme emotional upset to themselves and the family left "in", is simply,"Oh! we were wrong then". YET, they were so right then....really, what a fickly mixed up lot, with total disregard of decent normal feelings? IF THEY ARE SO RIGHT...as they always seem to be at the time....then time determines that they in fact were wrong...HOW CAN THEY POSSIBLY BE GOD'S ELECT???? MAKING SO MANY MISTAKES....HEY!! GOD JUST DOES NOT MAKE MISTAKES.
Guest: p m clarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: December 30, 2002
There are evidently many persons still "in" reading this site, and I direct my comments and thoughts to them, without any rancour or malice, but rather the hope and trust you come to terms with it.
These are truly times of great confusion, and possibly disallusionment for many of our brethren and they can hardly be faulted for wondering what is going on. Many will be learning for the first time that things are not as they have been told they were. The claims of "lies" are turning out to be verified-and scripture plainly points out we are responsable to deal with matters established in the mouths of two or three witnesses.
It's not about personalities-JTjr, or anyone else, it never was, it's about being governed by scripture, without respect of persons. In all the confusion,wondering what exactly what or who to believe, the answears lie right at hand- in your own bible.Read Mark 7 vs6&7 [JND version]
"This people honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.But in vain do they worship me, teaching[as their] teachings commandments of men.For leaving the commandment of God,ye hold what is delivered to men....."
Ask yourself-who are you following? What are you putting your trust in? The truth never changes, it never did, nor ever will, The concept that something is right one day,somehow wrong the next, you have to go back and apologise for it, or acting one way is either right or wrong, depending on who the current"elect vessel" is, somehow fails to meet the test of scripture.cPretty confusing, isn't it?
How are you going to deal with your own conscience when you now hear that treating your relatives , many of them Godly souls, as you did, abandoning them, refusing to speak to them, even inquire after their welfare, was now wrong? What about the people you can't go back to and apologise, because they are now with the Lord?
These are sobering questions that all PB's have to answear, and the Lord will lay it on your conscience, and you will get no rest until you come to terms with it.
Guest: Ted Druckenmiller
Guest E-mail: tedruck@quixnet.net
City, Country: Trenton, Missouri, USA
Date & Comments: December 30, 2002
I commend to all visiting this site to read or reread the following contributions from:
Right judgement in any issue comes from true facts taken into the presence of the Lord. Psalm 17:2 "Let my judgements come forth from thy prensence, let thine eyes regard equity." These true facts are available and it is essential that each of us pay attention to Exodus 23:1. JND translation reads, "Thou shalt not accept a false report; extend not thy hand to the wicked, to be an unrighteous witness." NKJV reads, "You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness."
The witness in the articles written by the three contributors above are true and faithful witnesses. I want to encourage each of us coming to this site to express our exercises in priestly feelings and may we be in unceasing prayer for the bringing down of the Jim Wall as stated in Pmclarke's 12/22 message. I would like to reinterate for anyone desireous of a tape recording of the Aberdeen Saturday PM reading along with a copy of Robert Stott's booklet "If We Walk In The Light," it is yours for the asking with a brief comment of your connection to the EB's. Get the facts. Love and greetings to all, as we pray for the Lord's blessings upon His sheep for the coming year.
Ted Druckenmiller
Guest: B S
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: December 30, 2002
Peter Wilson still seems to have certain EB tendencies when he seeks to curtail the freedom of speach - provided by this valuable site but denied within EB circles - and objects to the occasonal hell warning. It obviously pulled him up sharp!
Whilst it is perfectly true - indeed it is God's own truth - that we have complete freedom of choice, it is surely part of the Christian's responsibility to try to help people to make informed choices, especially in matters of heaven and hell. If Christians do not introduce such subjects, I suggest others are not likely to, and decisions may be made on only partial evidence.
I wish you all a peaceful new year in spite of all the war talk by US & UK leaders, whose decisions will probably affect us all.
Guest: Victor Congdon
Guest E-mail: jcongdon01@snet.net
City, Country: Portland, CT. USA
Date & Comments: December 30, 2002
Greetings,
This entry is to all those exEBs who, under the current edict, are to be contacted by the EBs. (The Local Priests in action.) I wish to provide some insight and perhaps help you to understand what will be happening to you when you are contacted. Following is a copy of the letter received from two EBs. The letter is quoted exactly as written. I shall point out what is not stated and what is, in my opinion, the true meaning of what is stated.
December 7, 2002
Dear Mr. C,
It has been a long time since we have seen each other, but our memories and impressions of your love for the Lord Jesus and your past care for His people has not dimmed. In the light of the Lord's near return, and reviewing the history of the assembly in M, for which we feel the Lord holds us responsible, we wonder if we have the facts straight regarding our separating from you and what your current feelings are. We have no wish to impose on you, and realize you are quite at liberty to ignore this letter. However, we would appreciate it if you felt disposed to see us face to face at your convenience, so that there are no misunderstandings or faults, they can be cleared. Phone numbers where we can be reached are below.
Sincerely yours in the Lord Jesus Christ,
D.
Phone: xxx-xxx-1234
And
T.
Phone: xxx-xxx-5678
Please note that the following was not stated.
Please note what was true meaning of what was stated.
This letter is loaded with misrepresentations and is less than truthful. You may draw other conclusions. I do not know if it is a form letter. To me it is an example of "ungrace."
Only by grace, Victor Congdon
PS The person who received this letter had a stroke five years ago that left him paralyzed. He is 75 years old. I care for this person to ensure all of his needs are met. He is my brother. I was outraged when the letter arrived. (They have no idea that I received this letter.) My brother said, "Don't worry about it, they don't know what they are doing. We do not need to reply." So, I am waiting for the next letter to arrive. If the EBs are reading this, as it is implied the EBs read this site, perhaps they will be embarrassed and stop their harassment of a seriously ill and paralyzed man. They seem to go to no end in their abuse of persons.
Guest: Tim Twinam
Guest E-mail: timt@surfbest.net
City, Country: Stowe, Vermont (USA)
Date & Comments: December 31, 2002
Hello from within a New Year's Eve ice-storm in the Vermont mountains!
In this increasingly crazy world of political correctness, it's fascinating to note that in the fast-developing new language of exEB-Speak, currently the worst possible insult is ... 'so-and-so has EB tendencies' or 'so-and-so should return to the EB's...'. These are strange echoes that remind me of similarly-constructed labels that were applied from dark corners of those old dismal circles.
I have no choice but to applaud anyone who has the strength of character (and/or purpose) to step to the front and state a strong position! It takes courage to stand against a common trend. It's sad but true that it is easier today to mutter Wiccan curses, or quote from the Koran than it is to read from the Bible ... sometimes we forget who put 'Christ' into Christmas and what the number 2003 actually represents! The vital significance of HEAVEN and HELL don't change simply because we're in the 21st century. Some things are timeless and if you find a strong negative reaction to these two innocuous Oxford Dictionary words, then you might do well to ask yourself 'why?'.
One of the finest qualities of Freedom is that I am (you are) allowed to state personal views freely and openly ... and in UPPER-CASE if we want to! So with that in mind, I wish you all a belated Happy CHRISTmas and a JESUS-centred New Year!
(I suppose some of you might call this capital punishment?)
--grins from Tim Twinam
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: December 31, 2002
Some entries here are right on target and other entries 'amaze' the reader. pm clarke on 10/4/02 pride and arrogance of EBs pinpoints major difficulty. What's amazing is Margaret Wilson thinks she was privileged to be taught by the 'elect'. JT Jr was not elect of God, but 'in' by popular demand. One major mistake was JT encouraged children partaking of Lord's Supper. I was breaking bread at 12 but was not converted until 18. That is partaking in an unworthy manner, eating and drinking judgment to myself. After I was born again, I told an older sister at the meeting that I had come to know the Lord as my Savior. Her response was so evil. She asked, "Why are you telling me that? We don't care about that here." 'PRIVILEGED'?? Years before my father was publically rebuked, shamed, 'shut up' under discipline by Bill Petersen. I was so upset, I had to be escorted out. My father was innocent and should have "shaken the dust off his feet as a testimony against them" (Luke 9:5) leave EBs to find true Christians who exhibit fruit of Spirit. As for sad story of suicide in Baltimore MD. is not surprising. I too had contemplated suicide, jumping off a 300' bridge. That was before I was saved - a LOST ETERNITY. EBs are pathetic.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: December 31, 2002
It seems I misread Guy Wilson entry 12/8. It reads, his wife Margaret was told she was 'privileged' to sit under JTjr teaching. Thankful to realize my mistake and admit it. We wish EB/peebs could see their sin, error, mistakes and admit where they have been very wrong. 1 John 1:9 Happy New Year 2003! Cheers to all!
Guest: Margaret Petersen Wilson
Guest E-mail: margaret.wilson50@btinternet.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, England
Date & Comments: December 31, 2002
Dear ‘Supressed’
I am glad you realized that I do not think I benefited in any way from sitting under JTJr’s ministry. Quite the reverse. You definitely misread that I felt it a ‘privilege’ to be taught by the ‘elect’! You refer to my father acting against yours in an assembly meeting. Unfortunately, my father is no longer with us to speak for himself, but would, if alive, humbly ask your and your father’s forgiveness. The first thing my father did after the New York split was to go round to the Pacific Street Brethren, Andrew Robertson, Mr Hoyt, Mr Parker and as many others he could remember and try to put matters straight with them. He met with nothing but love and forgiveness which he found humbling.
When I was concerned with JTJr’s drinking in Sydney, Australia, I phoned home and spoke to my father about it. He wasn’t concerned then because the Brethren weren’t concerned. My father was a system supporter all the way. He did nothing by halves. It took learning from Renee Taylor of her pain regarding MK and of her concern about Jim’s alcoholism, to stop my father in his tracks. After that he did his best to seek justice. For this I am fervently thankful or I would still be locked in a mindless system of error.
When EB’s apologize to us for harsh treatment, they are actually un-doing JTJr’s ministry. It was he who taught this harshness which defies the laws of nature. While undermining his ministry on one hand, they call him the ‘elect’ on the other hand. This is double-talk and is actually dishonest.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: December 31, 2002
What appears to be a Brethren School, The Thistledown Education Centre (see Correspondence - Home Education, 23 March 2002), turns out not to be a school at all. It is merely a centre:-
“Providing limited tutorial assistance for children whose parents are engaged in Home Education.”
We may assume that, certainly in the United Kingdom, the same applies to other so-called “Brethren Schools”. Therefore, it is not strictly true to say that the Brethren have their own schools.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate
Date & Comments: December 31, 2002
The Woodcock story - continued.
Yesterday I popped in to see Philip Woodcock before visiting Laurie Twinam. I asked Philip for the address of the new Australian leader known as B.D.H. who was taking meetings in Newcastle England yesterday but Philip did not appear to know! Ironic that I knew more than he did about his new leader. His father, Max Woodcock, saw me but made no effort to speak to me.
I asked Philip if a meeting could be arranged with B.D.H. before he leaves England as I had received a call from someone to see if I could arrange it. I will let you all know when (if?) I have a response. Any bets out there?
Interestingly, the first question Philip asked me was, "Do you yet think differently about Mr Taylor than you did three weeks ago?". I had castigated the man. He implored me to "come back". I said that the brethren would never have me as I am too bolshy. He said that he also was bolshy but they accepted him. (He was shut up for quite I while I am told).
Desperation is setting in perhaps. I wryly observed that I could never comply with all their rules. To this I had the astonishing response: "We have no rules". So, if I "go back" I can
The law of liberty is a wonderful law and I vote that we all take advantge of it. Who wants to return to bondage?
Interestingly Philip has never asked me if I am a believer nor has he mentioned the name of the Lord. When he asked me if I thought JTjr was a pure man, I said that there was only one who was "holy, harmless, undefiled and separated from sinners" - Jesus himself who was no mere man and beyond compare. Oh dear, I had forgotten that JTjr was virtually deity in their eyes! Sad but true.
Happy New Year to ins and outs.
Guy Wilson
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate
Date & Comments: December 31, 2002
The Woodcock Sharp session of December 3, 2002
I promised a little more information and have decided to publish most of the points debated. Here they are.
I gave them this list of items and a few more besides and they still want me back!! I love them all dearly but not that much.
Guy Wilson